Using the Wrong Dictionary (2014)
jsomers.net
jsomers.net
The problem with many dictionaries is that they often try to be too reductionist, as with some of the examples in the article, but with other languages it's interesting because you quickly realise that words don't have a one-to-one mapping but instead words are usually overloaded with multiple meanings, sometimes related, and over languages will have words that overlap in different ways.
Sticking just with English for now, consider "interest" - it can mean a desire to know more about something, a pastime, the money earned when lending money to someone else, a stake in a company, and other meanings besides these. Some of these meanings have other words that describe them, e.g. a pastime is also called a hobby, and some of them have other meanings, e.g. a stake could be something in the ground.
Taking a mathematical view for a moment, if you start thinking about the richness of these words and their meanings, you could almost imagine having dots to represent concepts and words being like a Venn diagram that encompass some of these dots and not other, and have overlaps with other words. You can consider a thesaurus as a book that lists out all these overlapping areas, which are not necessarily transitive across overlaps - e.g. stake can never mean hobby.
If you consider Romance languages, you'll find that English often compresses multiple meanings into one that are distinct in other languages - e.g. "free" is "without payment" or "without restrictions". Many languages split up the ideas in "to know", for instance to know information, to know a person, to recognise something, to understand something, etc. In other cases, English has several words for similar concepts where other languages have one word for all the concepts - e.g. English words for meat are generally Germanic origin for the animal, and French origin for the food you eat, such as cow/beef, pig/ham, sheep/lamb, etc.
I've been learning Chinese for a few years, and it's even more fascinating here as most words are two characters, and those characters themselves usually have their own meanings. If you were to look up the English word, you'll usually find a host of different translations you might be able to use, but if you just try to learn a one-to-one mapping, you'll never really understand them. It only when you look at the meanings of those words that you'll start to understand the nuances a bit better. For instance, the English word "clear" might be translated as (I'll use pinyin rather than characters) to a bunch of words that clearly (sic) have some connection to each other: qingchu (clear about something, can understand something), qingche (clear, transparent, limpid), qingxi (clarity, distinct), mingxian (obvious, evident, distinct), mingbai (understood, obvious, frank, explicit), mingque (clarify, explicit, clear-cut), queding (definite), qinglang (clear day), touming (transparent), xiande (apparent), and many other translations for other meanings that don't really relate in Chinese such as clear conscience, clear diary, clear road, etc... Looking at these Chinese words shows a number of related characters: qing, chu, che, xi, ming, xian, que, lang, and looking at those independently is like seeing big sets of Venn diagrams of concepts, and the individual Chinese words are kind of the Chinese intersections of those concepts and the English word "clear" includes some (but not all) of those concepts, along with some others of its own. For instance, there's a fairly large overlap between chu and che in these words (roughly transparency), ming and lang (roughly brightness), etc. What's really good about Chinese is that after learning enough of these, you start to intuit a meaning for the characters and you can sometimes correctly guess the feeling of the Chinese word without necessarily being able to actually translate it into English.
Whilst learning some of these words, I've discovered new English words, so e.g. qingche is translated as "clear, limpid" and I'd never come across "limpid" before, but now I have a new English word for "completely transparent". Similarly, as I've been learning words for some common medical terms, rather that just being a random word for a condition you've heard of but don't really know what it is, the Chinese word has enough meaning that you can actually understand it, e.g. "pulmonary edema" (I'd heard it before but had no idea what it actually was) in Chinese is "fei shui zhong" - literally a liquid swelling in the lung.
I’d have to take exception to the medical examples however -
I’m not sure if the translation is ‘a liquid swelling in the lung’ or ‘liquid swelling in the lung’ both of which are technically incorrect, one more than the other.
In actual fact the English is highly descriptive, just not in layman’s terms, and you need to learn another whole vocabulary in order to understand it.
This is beneficial because medicine is a highly technical. We were told in our first day of med school that we would learn around 5000 words by the time we were done. You can be come conversant in most languages with much less than that.
The Chinese example you’re providing (I have no idea if that’s the term Chinese doctors would use in their notes) seems more akin to how I would describe pulmonary oedema to a patient or family member - ‘you have water on your lungs’
I'm not really sure of the difference between these two, but I'm not a doctor so any liquid in the lungs sounds bad to me! But I probably also translated it wrongly, as Chinese grammar is kind of different to English anyway. In Chinese, there's no real difference between "a something", "the something" and just "something", although you could say "one something" if you particularly want to indicate a single item.
The actual characters are 肺水肿, where 肺 (fei4) is a noun that means lung, 水 (shui3) is a noun that usually means water, but also often just liquid generally, and 肿 (zhong3) which could be a noun meaning a swelling or bump, or a verb meaning to swell. According to my dictionary, 水肿 together means oedema or "having an excess of watery fluid", but like I say I've only heard this word in English and never really knew what it was, because I've never needed to know, so that was really the point - that the Chinese word is naturally more descriptive. In general, the way this word is formed, the 肺 (lung) at the start as a noun followed by another noun, generally means that the first noun provides the context, and the second noun provides more detail, which is why I translated it as "in the lung". It's not really the correct translation as literally "swelling in the lung" would be more precisely "肺里的水肿" where 里 means "inside" and 的 is kind of like 's. A guess the more natural understanding of 肺水肿 would be "pertaining to the lung, excess of fluid".
But, I don't think this kind of explicitness is unique to this, for instance "pneumonia" is 肺炎, which is the same 肺 (fei4) lung and 炎 (yan2) which means inflammation or flame as a noun or hot as an adjective. As an aside, while I've seen both meanings of the word before, I've only just realised that it's kind of odd that inflammation (which I associate more as swelling and not heat) and flame is actually common to both meanings in English as well. Looking up other words with 炎, gives me 肾炎 which is 肾 (shen4) meaning kidney and 炎 (yan2) meaning inflammation. Again, I've never once heard "nephritis" in English, and would have no idea how to guess at its meaning, but it's kind of obvious from the Chinese meaning. Similarly "gastritis" (at least I know this one!) is 胃炎 where 胃 (wei4) means stomach and "dermatitis" is 皮炎 where 皮 (pi2) is skin. There's a bunch more similar ones, but I think the pattern is obvious.
I'm sure Chinese probably does have some random and non-obvious medical words that I haven't come across, but most of the ones I have learned aren't necessarily obvious until you know them, but are easy to remember afterwards, e.g. "having a fever" is 发烧 where 发 (fa1) means to send out and 烧 (shao1) means to burn.
Oh, and yeah 5000 words is a lot of extra vocabulary! I'm still only around 4000 words in Chinese and I can survive most conversations and usually explain what word I mean even if I don't know what the word is!
You can specify which dictionary you want to use with the '-d' option, or write an alias or bash function to invoke gcide directly, e.g.,
dgcide () { dict -d gcide "$*" | ${PAGER:-less}; }
Another favourite dictionary is the Online Etymological Dictionary, which shows word origins (not necessarily the present day meaning, but often informing it.That's also possible to query from a terminal via:
etym () { w3m "https://www.etymonline.com/word/$1"; }
(w3m is a highly-useful, vi-keybindings-based, terminal-mode Web browser: <https://w3m.sourceforge.net/>).If a dictionary is supposed to state the meanings of words as those words are used, you have to go out and look at how they’re used, not toil in isolation at your desk, tracing in your mind the lines of force emanating from words. Going out and looking means lexicography is something of an observational science (N.B.: “something of”).
Yes, it’s delightful to plumb the depths of something like the OED. But obsolete or antiquated meanings of words are not necessarily somehow latent in the words as used presently. Language changes; meanings change.
You see the same issue more often with etymologies. Some people seem to think that etymology necessarily sheds light on how the word is used today. Like you’re supposed to go “ah-ha!” when someone shows you the meanings of root words or something. Etymology, too, is delightful to play with, but it, too, has a more rigorous face. But thinking you’ve discovered something deep about the present use of a word because you’ve run across a peculiar or otherwise interesting etymology just reveals a basic misunderstanding of what an etymology is for.
All that said, as a somewhat hyperverbal person myself, I completely understand and appreciate the real delight you can experience in word exploration and wordplay. So I throw no shade at it. But the idea that “you are using the wrong dictionary” or even “using the dictionary wrong” because you are looking for the basic descriptive fact(s) about word usage in the present is asinine. From it wafts the odor of one who spends too much time smelling their own farts.
I think you're ignoring that, if enough of us do this, they can also change back.
Develop.
Awareness, as I mentioned nearby, we could say is required for language to "evolve". Out of entropy, a natural occurrence, language can devolve.
Competence → evolution; incompetence → devolution (increased introduction of randomness).
More precisely, we think that an etymological analysis is needed to shed light on why the word is used in some ways today, and to basically reveal its core ideal meaning that allows (or contributes explaining) its uses.
It's awareness.
You have your tools, you should know them adequately well. Language is worth special attention.
I doubt this very much. Words are used the ways they are today because people, at some time, adopted that use. That’s it. That’s the story. Now, something like the OED is wonderful for investigating when/where word uses emerged. Why they emerged when/where they did suggests some deeper reason than “people started using the words those ways.” Except for technical or official vocabulary, I doubt such a deeper reason exists.
> and to basically reveal its core ideal meaning
I don’t know why you’d think an etymology reveals that. “Core ideal meaning” sounds too purposive, like someone somewhere innovated the word you’re studying to capture just that meaning. Suppose a language‘s etymology for “car” (the language’s equivalent I mean) is “fire wagon” because that was what people happened to start calling it and it caught on and spread. That doesn’t give you any deep insight into cars, fire or wagons. Nor does it give you any deep insight into word formation (semantically), nor about the range of possible extensions of “car” in that language (e.g., if they invented a car powered by water and introduced the term “water car,” they wouldn’t then find it somehow forbidden because etymologically it’s a water fire wagon).
> You have your tools, you should know them adequately well. Language is worth special attention.
No disagreement here. But we don’t study the origin and history of hammers simply because we want to be careful, excellent craftspeople in the present. (But, as I say, language and its history are interesting topics in themselves.)
You may have to study the matter a bit instead of looking it from the outside then. You will see that the relations are relevant (far from being arbitrary). So, ignoring them is just ignorant.
> car
If 'car' comes from 'cart', and 'cart' could be descendant from an idea of "basket" and/or from an idea of "runner" ex carrus, then this notion should be one you gained, for awareness and competence, present when you use the term, and a notion you should gain to have a proper insight of the term.
(Four years after moving from Australia to the UK, my twenty-volume print copy of the OED remains in storage in Australia, waiting for international freight rates to fall. Oh how I miss it.)
I'm sure I'm not the only person to have thought about how cultural differences are sustained over time on the account of synchronization challenges due to bandwidth limitations between cultures (language, frequency, latency).
To be honest, urban dictionary does everything this author wanted. Any 18 year old and up knows that if you want the right insult (or the right descriptor to a sex act you want to propose) you gotta use the right vernacular.
https://mypointbeing.com/2020/12/14/the-end-of-the-road-for-...
I recall a blog post from one of the (former) members of the usage panel, but DDG isn't finding it for me now. Surely more than one of the former panelists have blogged about it -- anyone have links?
It's a telling comment on corporate priorities of our time that there's funding for keeping up with social "sensitivity issues", but not for dropping references to the non-existent panel from the main website. Indeed, some of those listed as active members have already set down their pen for the last time: Harold Bloom, Joan Didion.
- 2014 (635pts, 139 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7772557
- 2019 (291pts, 87 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19763435
- 2021 (231pts, 173 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29734242
You’re probably using the wrong dictionary (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35635876 - April 2023 (1 comment)
You're probably using the wrong dictionary - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31776500 - June 2022 (1 comment)
Using the wrong dictionary (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29734242 - Dec 2021 (170 comments)
You’re probably using the wrong dictionary (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19763435 - April 2019 (87 comments)
You're probably using the wrong dictionary - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9294518 - March 2015 (2 comments)
Using the wrong dictionary - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7772557 - May 2014 (138 comments)
You’re probably using the wrong dictionary - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7765006 - May 2014 (1 comment)