‘Psychonauts’ by Mike Jay review | Hacker News Reader

‘Psychonauts’ by Mike Jay review

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106 pointsprismatic117 comments

In case there's anyone skimming the comments and thinking that it seems everyone else is doing all sorts of drugs... you'd be getting a skewed perception.

There are plenty of other people who are averse to drugs, so are less likely to be commenting on a post that appeals to enthusiasts.

Personally, if anyone I work with is doing drugs, I hope they'll be OK, and that it won't make them ill, stupid, or flaky.

BTW, if someone decides they have a problem with drugs, and needs help from their employer to get better, they can see which HR/labor programs apply (and how much they have to say), and whether there's a trusted manager who will help support. Like in other facets of work, I'd much rather someone said they needed help with something early, rather than the problem becoming apparent later.

Be well.

> thinking that it seems everyone else is doing all sorts of drugs... you'd be getting a skewed perception.

I’ve had a few friends and acquaintances fall into problematic drug use.

The common theme among all of their situations was that they moved into social circles with a lot of drug users. When everyone around you is doing a lot of drugs it’s easy to start thinking that everyone in the world must be doing a lot of drugs. After all, that’s what you see all around you and what everyone you know is talking about.

This creates a second layer of hazard where the recovered people or even moderate users self-select out of the social circle while the social group starts accumulating up even heavier drugs users from people’s friends-of-friends who so drugs together. As this compounds, it becomes easy for people in the group to think that their own drug use is low because it’s not as bad as so-and-so, or they haven’t overdosed or developed major health problems (yet) like the guy in the friend group who is a complete wreck. They start losing touch with reality because the “normal” they surround themselves with is anything but.

I don’t think the average HN drug use commenter is at that stage, obviously, but I do pick up hints of this dynamic in a lot of comments. The way some people post “everyone’s doing it” type reasoning without a second thought is kind of weird to see, not to mention contradictory to actual statistics. It’s more telling about the commenter’s social circle and how entrenched they are in their bubble. If you really think everyone is consuming drugs frequently or that semi-frequent (yearly or more often) psychedelic use is “common” then you’re likely in a bubble.

> The common theme among all of their situations was that they moved into social circles with a lot of drug users.

Or maybe they moved into those social circles because they had a developing drug problem. The reasons why people use drugs is very complex. I used a lot of drugs when I was younger (< 18), and I lost many friends to drugs. Not that my experience translates particularly well to adult drug use, but there were definitely some common themes to why teenagers I knew started using drugs:

1. They were sociopaths. This was a big category of users. They just didn't care and wanted to do whatever felt good.

2. Endured some type of abuse at home.

3. This isn't a reason, but rather a correlation, but many drug users I knew came from divorced households, myself included.

There were other reasons, but those were the three broad categories I noticed.

It's like we're in the Matrix.

And the Matrix is a little island in the middle of a big ocean.

Tripping, meditating, dreaming and a hundred other methods will get you into the ocean. Show it to you, splash around the shoreline, go for a swim, meet the people who live there...

I've tripped some. Psilocybin is my favorite psychedelic substance.

My favorite method is Vipassana meditation.

(Also, is it just me or is the psychedelic culture markedly saner than the meditation culture?)

For having dabbed into both, I’m not sure psychedelic culture is better. The promises of psychedelics are higher and in my case the hopes were higher too, so it took me longer to acknowledge the issues with that culture. But many prominent people lie about their respect for science, and in the end I doubt there are fundamental differences with the field of meditation.

Not better, saner. By saner I mean they seem to be more organized and grounded.

I mean look at Erowid. Here's the method : here's the report. We have some pudding, we have some proof. Straightforward as heck.

Whereas the meditation scene seems to be full of grifters, dogmatists and hand-wavers.

The psychedelic culture has a substance in hand. If the substance is bunk then that becomes apparent pretty quick. Solid evidence. Good science.

Whereas the meditation scene has a thousand methods and if it doesn't work for you... well.. maybe you are doing it wrong, or maybe you need to try another app subscription...

(not to say that there aren't some very straightforward meditation techniques that pay off quick.)

It's a much older tradition that's been tried by hundreds of different cultures. It comes from long before empiricism became a strong value. It's kinda like cooking in that there's an objective part of it but also a bunch of hearsay that's been passed along for generations.

I do metta. I'm still wondering if meditation makes you a gullible crystal buying idiot, or does it just attract such people.

Well it's a pretty good story surrounding meditation : what mediation can do for you, the philosophies about it, sounds kinda like magic, etc.

Which would attract story-lovers. And might lead them to approach it from the story-end first (rather than seeking some more solid to work with). Which could be a problem.

> Which would attract story-lovers. And might lead them to approach it from the story-end first (rather than seeking some more solid to work with). Which could be a problem.

Can you elaborate on this? Thanks!

> I'm still wondering if meditation makes you a gullible crystal buying idiot, or does it just attract such people.

Maybe both?

It makes some:

It can be genuinely destabilizing to realize that e.g., the mind creates its emotional reality and it can hack that reality.[1] It's less destabilizing if you put that responsibility on some external fetish item – crystals, a guru, a retreat, an app.

It attracts some:

A lot of people are looking for an easy way to socially signal that they're good and unique. Meditation accoutrements fit the bill. See "Zen home and garden deco ideas" and "Can anyone identify this [Buddhist thing I just bought]?" posts on some popular Buddhist forums.

[1] https://www.ted.com/talks/lisa_feldman_barrett_you_aren_t_at...

Seems we enjoy similar things :)

My last psilocybin trip taught me how to sleep better by showing how I should focus on my body sensations when I feel restless. I should tense and stretch, that's what I noticed during my trip.

Disclaimer: I took them in Amsterdam, truffles are decriminalized there.

I see people giving prescriptions in this comment section. I am but a humble seeker. I can not claim to give anyone access to the best knowledge, or even lasting knowledge. Neither, I believe, can any of our fellow commenter. Anyone saying "you must integrate these lessons," or "ignore all else and read these books," are not wrong. They are giving advice that, to them, sounds good and wholesome. Perhaps they are.

However, I would push back against such dogma (and it is dogma even if it is only propagated by a single individual). Here are some of my own personal lessons from my psychedelic explorations:

Do what you are curious about, no more and no less.

Listen to the advice of your peers. Take it as freely as they give it. Yet, if you find no sense in it, also know you are not bound by it.

Be curious. Explore and research the things you do to your body, to the best of your ability, before you do them.

Keep an open mind and an open heart.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be kind to yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here. (Max Ehrmann, Desiderata)

Finally, I believe my best approach to the psychedelic experience is to treat it as a new aspect of philosophy. To me, it is about the art of living well with myself.

I love all you people. Be safe and be kind.

Agreed, I didn't mean to trivialize DMT, I shoulda prefaced it by saying I tripped last night, 75mg vaporized, and managed a 16 minute torrent of geometry without ego death, which was unique (stim/dizzos).

Really, it may be the best choice for _readers here_, given it's short length, penultimate intensity, less (statistically) common cases of HPPD, and massive perspective change. That is, after all, how it has earned its informal title as the "business mans trip,"

Regarding the chances of HPPD, I have seen far more people (even adjusted for LSDs and DMT rarity relatively) blame acid for their mental discontinuity then DMT.

LSD makes you feel like you had an eureka moment; DMT makes you think you had it then forgot it, as it's nature. Shrooms....are a dice roll, especially comparivitly

I've never heard it called the business man's trip, but I love that. Totally agree with it. It's part of why I'm so enamored with DMT as a substance. Coffee-sized psychedelic, imo.

Also, thank you for engaging with me as productively as you have been. I appreciate the good spirit of your messages; looking back at some of mine, I wish I had taken the time to write them more personably.

Do you have a blog?

I do not, but I've considered making one before... this might be the question that gets me to do it. If I may ask, what about the post moved you to ask?

Your tone is.. disengaging. In a supercharged world where words are weaponry, I Just felt welcomed.

People should be allowed to take whatever substances they want, as long as they stay away from my neighborhood. I’ve moved as far away from drug users as I could and it was the best decision to increase my productivity, lower my stress, and increase my physical safety I’ve ever made.

> I’ve moved as far away from drug users as I could and it was the best decision to increase my productivity, lower my stress, and increase my physical safety I’ve ever made.

i'm honestly unaware of places without drug users, so honest question : did you move away from drug users, or did you move away from users of a specific drug?

The only way I can fathom that someone may be truly away from drug users is that they're also totally away from populations of any kind.

Antarctica comes to mind, but i'd probably be surprised.

Out of sight, out of mind.

I say that unironically. I don't care what my neighbours do in the privacy of their own home, as long as it doesn't affect me. (Eg as long as tobacco or pot smoke doesn't waft over to me.)

What about neighbors having backyard campfires or BBQers?

My objection is mostly based on how much things annoy me, not necessarily on health.

Health-wise backyard campfires and BBQ are probably no better (or worse) than burning tobacco or pot.

Many places already restrict backyard campfires and similar. See eg https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/dec/17/wood-bur...

To expand a bit on my original comment:

> I don't care what my neighbours do in the privacy of their own home, as long as it doesn't affect me.

So I might care about them doing a backyard campfire. If it's both legal and long-standing custom in that neighbourhood, I might just not move there in the first place. If it's illegal and I already live there when they start, I might object.

I think you’re being unnecessarily pedantic. Sure, there are caffeine and marijuana and alcohol users everywhere, but there’s a huge difference between your neighbors quietly having a drink in their home after work compared to loud alcoholics getting in fights and stumbling around on the streets.

When someone says there is a lot of drug activity in a neighborhood, they’re not saying that people are quietly consuming an edible in their basement every once in a while. Problematic drug use seeps into many aspects of social life.

And before anyone assumes that I’m referring to poor neighborhoods, I’m not. One of the most problematic and dangerous drug environments I ever witnessed (in my relatively sheltered life) involved some very well-off young people who got caught up in drugs, then dealing drugs, and then severe addiction that interferes with their judgment to the point that they were getting violent and threatening murder. This was in a well-off community where a number of families ultimately chose to move away to escape the parts of the community with a drug problem and had no regrets for doing so.

I’ve also crossed less dramatic situations where social groups went downhill due to less overt drug use: People who start using unnecessarily high non-therapeutic doses of Adderall to become energized (doesn’t last, causes weird problems over time), people who start using benzos with casual disregard (turns into a dependency very quickly), and even people who casually use opioids for recreation as if it’s a sustainable activity. In each case, the effects of excessive drug use start taking a toll on the person that extends to the social group. Getting away can be like a breath of fresh air.

Which group of "drug users" must stay away from your neighborhood: recreational pot smokers, or those taking doctor prescribed opiods and adderall?

Not the OP:

I'd like pot smokers to stay away from my neighbourhood, just like smokers of any other kind. But that's just because of the smell. If they want to eat their cannabis or vape their tobacco etc, I don't mind.

I mind Vaping as well. In addition to all sorts of smoke.

I even mind dryer scents; literally ANY unusual smell in the air. Unusually pungent foods, camp fire and BBQ smoke, any cleaning agents. IMO every house should have scrubbed exhausts and possibly also intakes.

I don't particularly like the smell of vaping, but I find it doesn't carry nearly as far as smoking nor does it stick around as much. So I object much less.

> IMO every house should have scrubbed exhausts and possibly also intakes.

You might find the Coase Therom interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem

I mean the drug users that punched my car, break windows, yell at all hours, stole my best friends bike tire, and shit around every corner even though there are plenty of public toilets. Don’t care whether it’s “legal”.

If you find this topic interesting ignore everything in the above post and get yourself a copy of:

Plants of the Gods: Their Sacred, Healing, and Hallucinogenic Powers by Richard Evans Schultes (Author), Albert Hofmann (Author), Christian Rätsch (Author)

For the ones who might not know, Albert Hofmann discovered LSD

He wrote another book about that, titled "LSD — My Problem Child".

https://maps.org/images/pdf/books/lsdmyproblemchild.pdf.

Couple of additional great reads around the subject:

The Doors of Perception - Aldous Huxley

Food of the Gods - Terrence McKenna.

And honestly reading Erowid trip report is super interesting/fun (especially DMT! Heh).

And PiHKAL (Phenethylamines I Have Known and Loved): A Chemical Love Story by Drs. Alexander & Ann Shulgin

Also TIHKAL: The Continuation is a 1997 book written by Alexander Shulgin and Ann Shulgin about a family of psychoactive drugs known as tryptamines. A sequel to PIHKAL: A Chemical Love Story, TIHKAL is an acronym that stands for "Tryptamines I Have Known and Loved"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiHKAL#:~:text=TIHKAL%3A%20T....

Cleansing the Doors of Perception by Hudson Smith.

Do they cover datura?

In my experience, Datura isn't something I'd use for healing, it's something I'd use to break down myself. The experience with that is unlike others, and not in a good way.

I'd liken it to the salvia experience.

I'd respectfully disagree. For the first part, datura is an anticholinergic neurotoxin, a deliriant. Salvia is a kappa-opioid dissociative, without any known toxicities. The important thing to keep in mind with salvia is minimalism. It has no tolerance to speak of, so nothing is lost by starting small, well smaller than you know will give noticeable effect. Then build up from there. (An effect of salvia overdose is 'automatic action', where your body moves on impulse without the intervention of your waking mind)

Though toxicity seems the main difference, comment above is talking about experience and not molecular mechanisms of action.

In a similar vein, if someone would ask a distinguished professor of neuroscience to provide a full description of the exact brain molecular state that "generates" an exact salvia experience (including any communicative content), s/he would fail.

> Though toxicity seems the main difference, comment above is talking about experience and not molecular mechanisms of action.

As someone who has done both, in similar settings, I'd still disagree with this. Datura was devilish like none other and probably one of the few psychedelics I'd never do again.

Datura being anticholinergic degrades the effect of acetylcholine, which is one of the components of (regular) attention. So no wonder it seems scary. But would you have the same experience after, for example, 10 days of continuous mindfulness/focusing meditation? Or after 30 days?

Having used both, salvia is something I’ve gone back to multiple times and find value in. If you treat salvia with respect, it’s useful.

Datura taught me a valuable lesson exactly once, about hubris.

Datura is a deliriant. I'm a strong advocate of psychedelics and have used almost everything, but Datura isn't something people should touch, it's very dangerous.

>>Datura is a deliriant.

Such definition includes very little context. You should try more functional, mindful set&setting based approaches.

Here is some context:

https://www.bionity.com/en/encyclopedia/Psychedelics%2C_diss...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliriant

Cocaine is anesthetic in one context and stimulant in another. Meth can be sedative in specific contexts (according to dr. Andrew Weil). The classification above may be partially useful, but obviously not effective.

Erowid stories of Datura are some of the more terrifying ones on the website. Example:

https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=17700

Read the repair trip reports for datura, brugmansia and belladonna.

I’m fascinated by the breadth of different experiences offered by plant and chemical mind alteration, and encountered more things than most people have heard of. Reading those reports was enough to make me not want to seek out these deleriants in any way at all.

I have read pretty much all the reports on Erowid on the three mentioned too and I don't remember a single one that sounded like a good experience.

I think the problem is being poisoned by atropine. It is not like you can just relax and go with the flow while literally being poisoned.

I believe the movie Hellraiser is inspired by datura too.

Repair == erowid

You win again autocorrect…

I have searched for an EPUB copy and unfortunately I can only get Richard Evan's "Where the Gods Reign: Plants and Peoples of the Colombian"

Appears to be on Anna’s Archive if you’re still looking

Such a great resource. Thanks.

I found it on archive.org. Search creator:”Albert Hoffman”

There's a fairly popular onion domain called Psychonaughts wiki that delves into a lot of drugs and their effects, history, etc. Interesting read for sure.

Dark Fail has the most current link since it changes so frequently.

There is also something like this accessible on the light web: https://m.psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page

Ya, I think it's the same one. Didn't realize it was also on the clear net

Erowid is also a great ressource to when using psychoactive drugs.

https://www.erowid.org/

Maybe it’s just because I have moved to the West coast but it seems we are in a localized upswing of exploration of psychedelics.

From where I’m sitting it doesn’t appear to be localised.

It’s not localised and it’s not new either tbh.

That said, I do think there’s certainly been renewed interest since the pandemic in some of the classical psychedelics like mushrooms, etc. Certainly a lot more people asking around for good picking spots the last couple of seasons here.

It’s definitely localized. most societies don’t look favorable on drug use including most of east Asia, south and south east Asia, Middle East, and more.

I recall Terrence McKenna (everyone's favorite historical psychonaut) saying "It's hard to do psychedelics". I agree with him. These things are dangerous when the set and setting is wrong, or if they're done at an off-kilter phase of your life, or that you simply over-indulge in them.

I appreciate the mini renaissance period they're having these days, but these things need plenty of research before trying them. They're not something you do for a giddy high, they're tools. One thing people need to do is integrate the various lessons they've gained from tripping into their daily lives.

All too often, trips are like dreams, they fade and we suffer amnesia after trying them. It's crucial to take notes and integrate the ideas you've gained, otherwise you've wasted the trip(s) IMHO.

I wonder if there exists a framework for integration that follows a rational approach. Psychology in general is a field full of esoteric and hardly scientific approaches. What I found about its psychedelic subfield is even worse. Behind a facade of science, it’s still very much New Age stuff. I had a psychedelic experience in a group setting with people that are supposedly experienced and knowledgeable about the science. It was actually worse than when I tripped alone and integration has been hard.

Does anyone know of a rational technique or theory to do the integration work?

I'm a psychedelics enjoyer. imo, the only good knowledge of the science we currently have stops at the level of chemistry. We know what these molecules look like. Sometimes we have a good idea of what their action in the body is, including the brain. After that, imo, the "science" breaks down. In large part because it's so particular to the individual. I don't think we yet have a rational framework for radically deconstructing and reconstructing something so idiosyncratic as the subjective experience. Not one that well transcends the borders of individuality and intersubjectivity, that can be readily applied by all people (or even all types of people). I think we solidly enter the realm of philosophy... to my mind, the employment of psychedelics is most profitable when seen as a different facet of the art of living with yourself well.

As someone who almost always tries to "use" substances in this way, I think it's also perfectly fine to do it just "to have fun", party or whatever.

The experience itself is not to be disdained and not every trip has to be like this.

A good quote “ tripping with friends is bonding, tripping alone is therapy”. Both have their place and time and neither is better than the other.

I like this! Thanks!

The biggest issue is to ensure you have good mental health/life situations...

There have been times I've been super depressed and people recommend mushrooms, which I've done my fair share when I was younger and didn't do mushrooms for almost 25 years...

I wanted to do some but I was too depressed, and while it was recommended for depression, I know my relationship with mushrooms, and I know when I am not in a place to do them.

They need to be taken with an open happy heart, or focus and desire for such. They are no good if you're going to dwell on the negative aspects of your path - take the negative from an objective observation, and heal.

This sounds like the usual covert anti-drugs post that comes up every time, with sloppy claims and a total absence of facts.

> or that you simply over-indulge in them

duh. What isn't dangerous if you're stupid.

> They're not something you do for a giddy high

Weasel words 'giddy'. And I do use them precisely for a high.

> One thing people need to do is integrate the various lessons they've gained from tripping into their daily lives.

what does this mean and how do i do it? (serious question)

> All too often, trips are like dreams, they fade and we suffer amnesia after trying them

who is 'we' here, the entire user-base? And I've never heard of this effect, ever.

'Assume good faith' is part of the HN guidelines.

Not OP, but as someone who had his first trip a couple of months ago, I can relate to a couple of points you're calling out.

Regarding integration: I have had appointments with a therapist specialised on integrating peak experiences and for me what worked was to have someone to discuss and extract meaning and insights from the trip and find 'hooks' how to make them part of daily life.

Regarding the amnesia, I can also relate. I still remember the insights, the lessons, the characters and the meaning of my trip. But it gets harder and harder to connect to the feelings of the trip, which in turn make the insights less 'sticky'.

Hi, thanks. I try to assume good faith but when the same kind of posts keep appearing, opinionated, fact free and making dubious claims which they won't back up when asked, I start to doubt.

Someone elsewhere on this thread described integration. For myself when I've experienced it it's a kind of deep sea-change in my mind, no therapy or reflection required. Something changes, snap, and I'm a newer person.

Thanks about the amnesia, no experience of this nor ever heard of it but I'm glad someone could verify it.

"Integration" is a very common term so it should be easy to read a better description that I'm about to give. My take on it is that integration is the process of reflecting on one's experience and figuring out what it means for your real life.

For instance, say someone is burdened with thoughts of self-hatred due to growing up with critical and non-supportive parents. Although they can intellectually entertain the thought that the self-hatred is due to this, under the influence of psychedelics, they might viscerally feel the truth of it. When sober again, integration means taking that insight and working on changing your mindset to align with that new belief.

There are plenty of examples of the flip side too, eg, someone with a string of bad relationships might, under the influence, really see that they themselves are the main cause of the failures. But an insight isn't enough. Integration is making changes in sober life to change things in the positive direction.

Or maybe your life is going great, you take psychedelics, and you have a hard trip that is filled with morbid thoughts about sickness and death. It can be interpreted as an indication that those thoughts are present but subconscious even in sober life, and maybe it is worth investigating more via conventional means.

Actually some of that rings a bell, so thank you for explaining. I believe what I've experienced is that but it's not so much an insight that needs analysing so much as having the obviousness of it thrust in your face. In my case, no analysis needed, but I am of course speaking only for myself.

I did a bunch of psychedelics when I was in my 20s, and the further I get away from it, the more ridiculous the pretentious pseudo-mystical crap people spout about it gets to me. There is a lot to learn from and LSD trip, but it's not magic, you're not seeing other worlds, it's not a goddess or an alien from another dimension.

Your mind is a network of neurons, psychedelics make those neurons fire in unusual ways, that's it. What you should be learning from it is that your _ordinary perceptions of the world_ are nothing but a very convincing illusion created by your mind, and that you should not entirely trust what you believe you are seeing and hearing and feeling, because in a very real sense -- _none of it is real_. What you should _not_ be taking away from it is that anything you see or feel or think during a trip is the _true_ reality, any more than your ordinary waking life is.

Walk away skeptical, walk away confused, don't walk away from it thinking you've discovered the meaning of life. Everyone you know that doesn't do drugs will think you're being silly, because you are.

California bill SB 58 just passed out of the “suspense file,” and actually has a path to pass.

Summary An act to amend Sections 11054, 11350, 11364, 11364.7, 11365, 11377, 11379, 11382, and 11550 of, to add Sections 11350.1 and 11377.1 to, to add and repeal Section 11214 of, to repeal Section 11999 of, and to repeal Article 7 (commencing with Section 11390) of Chapter 6 of Division 10 of, the Health and Safety Code, relating to controlled substances.

Would move forward access to a subset of these substances in California.

Full text of latest version here: https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB58/2023

I am personally strongly in favor of this bill, and more broadly decriminalizing a wider variety of drugs, and focusing more resources on research, medical uses, addiction prevention, treatment and prosecuting related secondary crimes like robbery etc…

I do worry about folks who perhaps have experienced the legal weed phenomenon stepping up to DMT or large mushroom doses and not being prepared. I know this is just decriminalizing, but access follows. Ultimately I believe it is the individual choice and the benefits outweigh the damages, but I am not certain how it all plays out when the real numbers are in.

> I know this is just decriminalizing, but access follows.

I just want affordable, trustworthy, fast, and legal quantitative testing so that people actually know what they're taking.

DMT only lasts 10-15 minutes, and will be so overpowering, glorious, and delightful, that one can only compare it to losing one's virginity, or being born again.

Mushrooms and LSD are way too longer/overrated and I fear those who haven't further explored the latent chemical/consciousness space misrepresent the dimension that, quite frankly, BETTER chemicals have to offer.

Dont do shrooms, 4acoDMT is far superior.

Dont do acid( edit: alone for the first time), at least not without taking a xanax (edit: read: or being in a well-intended state of mind) first.

DMT will sidestep all that.

iykyk, yk?

Mushrooms are incredibly varied, and I feel you just have not experienced good/strong mushrooms. I had trips which were indistinguishable from dmt.

I have, which is why I recommend beginners to NOT start with anything above a microdose of shrooms.

If you think tripping at near-DMT levels for that duration is something a noobie should experience, please do not trip sit or further give shamanic/healer advice.

Shrooms, especially alone, is the worst thing a beginner could start with, exactly because the potency between stems right next to each other vary wildy.

15mg of volumetrically dosed 4acoDMT with a -zolam is perfect, with no stomach pains because there is no metabolizing needed, it is a direct prodrug of psilocybin. Little body load, less mental, more visual.

It's a shame that, what, 6+ generations of synthetic awesomeness are suppressed because people think "shrooms" are more "organic and natural"

I do agree with the principle of minimalism. Great idea. Big fan of that idea. People should start low and ow. But holy shit. Please please please stop recommend benzodiazepines so casually.

>Please please please stop recommend benzodiazepines so casually.

benzo's and -olam's are a horrible drug that should not be taken except in the most extreme of circumstances - I compare it directly with electro shock therapy.

But these contexts are exceptional.

Never redose benzo's or any -zolam's, it will control you at a cellular level, that opioids couldn't even begin to.

Please don't recommend people take Xanax recreationally. Benzodiazepines are fraught with danger. It is not something to take lightly. Your experiences are not universalizable. I appreciate your insight, and I'm glad you've found substances you enjoy. But please refrain from engaging in drug exceptionalism. The first and foremost consideration of engaging in a substance ought to be harm reduction. This is not one of those "iykyk, yk" situations, in my humble opinion.

Also, fun aside: DMT may have interesting anabolic effects. I quite enjoy vaping DMT while working out. It helps me engage my muscles and mind more fully, and safely, in bodyweight non-ballistic exercises.

I hope you have a wonderful day, fellow seeker.

>Please don't recommend people take Xanax recreationally.

There is no way you could of inferred that from my post in good faith.

Do not ever, EVER, give hallucogenic/psychoactive drug, to a new-comer, without having a benzo or nerve pill on hand.

Benzo's, when given appropriately, are the only way - chemically - to help absolve the uneasiness pre- and post- dosing.

Given set and mood are the most paramount factors, it IS recommended that those trying substances (esp. tryptamines) are in a well mind set when initiating.

Nobody is suggesting taking more than a threshold dose of benzo's for recreation. That is a near antithesis of the point of these miracle blessings we take for granted.

Although I do appreciate the concern, yes, you SHOULD have a chemical emergency exit, especially when initiating those on their maiden voyage to the other side of the consciousness spectrum.

Or just take LSD and don't smoke weed - that's what generally causes psychic freakouts, in my experience, and I've done it over 100 times, no benzos ever.

Yes, since it hadn't been mentioned elsewhere:

cannabis can trigger an EXTREME early onset of CEV (Closed Eye visuals) when coming up on LSD.

Like: massive bong rip "Damn, those neighbors dogs should stop barking. Or maybe I could muzzle them. That doesnt make any sense. They aren't my dogs. hmmm. Maybe I should lay on this lawnchair and look at the stars. Holy fuck...."

Limbs trembling from nervousness, intense CEV's, only relinquishing when I somehow managed to sleep 10 minutes later - or stopped forming memories before going to bed.

If you do not smoke weed errday 420 blazeit, I would NOT suggest smoking when on L until you've already familiarized yourself with it's uncomfortable aroma of uneasiness.

If you don't mind my asking, is your caution about benzodiazepines out of concern for the addiction potential, the long-term effects (e.g. dementia risk), or something else (or a combination)?

Addiction potential, which is contextually oxymoronic.

Everyone knows Xanax and other -zolams will turn you into a demented zombie after a few years of (ab?)use.

It's nearly impossible to kill yourself with it (benzos) alone, but combinations with any other depressant will synergize and potentiate the CNS depressant effect, until you black out and stop breathing.

4-aco-Dmt and shrooms are both pro drugs of psilocin so they’re functionally the same molecule

DMT can be life changing to many people, me being one of them, but it’s also extremely powerful, scary, and not always a positively life changing experience

EDIT: I misinterpreted what you meant by the 4-aco-Dmt comment. I actually agree that it’s better than actual mushrooms, especially for beginners

2C-B is another less overwhelming option for beginners

>4-aco-Dmt and shrooms are both pro drugs of psilocin so they’re functionally the same molecule

except 4acoDMT doesn't have to react with your stomach acids, causing other second order effects, which have been attributed to the stomach ache, puking, and body load.

>2C-B is another less overwhelming option for beginners

Yes, sad to see it was one of the first things banned.

Far, far more dangerous phenethylamine (25x-NBo(Me|H|T) analogs on the spectrum between it and Mescaline are filling the void, killing people due to vasoconstriction, and because the threshold dose, normal dose, and fatal dose, are only a relatively and absolutely small difference.

I don't like this post. As a user of drugs when I can get hold of them (and strongly inclined to their legalisation), describing something as "overpowering, glorious, and delightful" dangerously misrepresent each person's own experience. Descriptions like this are bad advertising at best and at worst dangerously irresponsible.

I also don't like your personal recommendation of DMT over mushrooms. You're not in a position to recommend anything based on your personal experience alone, especially when it relates to serious legal aspects of non-legal drugs.

Finally, I don't like your recommendation of mixing drugs (Xanax and acid). For all I know that could lead to a serious interaction.

I don't like this post at all.

>describing something as "overpowering, glorious, and delightful" dangerously misrepresent each person's own experience.

It's nnDMT, not 5meoDMT. She will not hurt you, and it is literally so overpowering, it is not consciousnessly possible to retain one's ego mid trip (except when on stim+disso's :) )

>I also don't like your personal recommendation of DMT over mushrooms. You're not in a position to recommend anything based on your personal experience alone, especially when it relates to serious legal aspects of non-legal drugs.

Mushrooms have a duration 50x as long as DMT, and it's not "my" personal experience, it is the collective advice of those that tread these waters before us, as many will agree.

>Finally, I don't like your recommendation of mixing drugs (Xanax and acid). For all I know that could lead to a serious interaction.

> For all I know

>I know

you obviously dont. Call dispatch and ask what is the procedure for someone tripping on lysergamides - or google it.

A threshold, therapeutic, medically-incentivized safe dose of .5mg of any -zolam will categorically improve one's mood when administered in a safe and relaxing setting - which is the most paramount contributing factor to a positive experience with these substances.

unless the setting is further provoked - many people get angry on -zolams, - in which case, the point is moot; you shouldn't be trying to probe the elves on "bad day" anyhow.

No one is gonna rage-hit DMT and do anything, but rage-eating "organic natural mushrooms" is how idiots jump out of windows.

> It's nnDMT, not 5meoDMT. She will not hurt you

(my emphasis). You irresponsible idiot. That's equivalent to saying it's harmless – no drug is, all have risks both mental and physical[1] (mental perhaps being the main one here, but the almost instant 'lights out' of DMT can cause physical injury).

[1] and legal.

I think you are missing an incredible amount of context. The main takeaways I got from GP's post are:

- psychedelics can be and usually are an incredible life-changing experience for the better

- psychedelic-naive users should start with the lowest-duration drugs until they know how their body and brain react to them

- it's also a really good idea to have an "abort button" on hand (xanax/olams. Personally I'd recommend lorazepam, it's much safer and milder) if things start to go really south

I understand the concern about polypharmacy, but Benzos and psychedelics don't really have adverse interactions. The whole point is that benzos can put the kabash on the anxiety component of a "bad trip" (they won't stop the trip but they will mitigate the potential for psychological injury).

On the other hand, GP is saying things elsewhere in thread that feel... insufficiently substantiated, to be generous.

>On the other hand, GP is saying things elsewhere in thread that feel... insufficiently substantiated, to be generous.

>insufficiently substantiated

we are literally talking about effects that cannot, by definition, be articulated or substantiated usefully, and havent, because of their legalities.

if you are looking for a single sentence to sum it up, I don't think I have done an injustice.

LSD and Mushrooms are NOT as "safe" as culturally represented.

I don't recommended anyone who is not in the soundest of minds to try DMT, without an experienced trip-sitter, and an abort -zolam. That is the sentiment I've expressed, to a bizarre amount of mis-inference for dubious moral grandstanding by those I am sure think that they, too, know everything.

Don't take xanax before the trip; and if you are really so inclined, just have the proper dosage ready nearby. The trick is /knowing/ that you can stop it. But treat it as a last resort.

If you let go, the fear will melt away on its own. If it does, you'll find a level of peace and clarity. If it doesn't, even a bad trip can teach you something, if you step outside your mind and observe it like a scientist of yourself. This is part of gaining experience. This is part of the point of taking a psychedelic in the first place. If you chemically alter the fear away, you will never learn this. Start with a small dose, in a peaceful setting, with someone you trust who has done it before, do not re-dose during your first trip.

Take shrooms or acid if you want to. They are serious drugs but akin to a lucid dream, if you believe in the adverse effects then they will hold more weight on your psyche. In this sense OP's comments are doing a massive disservice.

Go to erowid and study up from there, instead of taking OP's obviously projected advice.

(Also, in another comment, OP writes that it is impossible to OD on benzos alone, which is false. Judge the quality of the information for yourself.)

You say so much truth just too stumble over semantics, it really is hard to assume good faith when you literally misquote me.

>if you believe in the adverse effects then they will hold more weight on your psyche. In this sense OP's comments are doing a massive disservice.

Having a bad DMT trip will leave you with higher cortisol levels, and a little shaken, exactly, EXACTLY, like waking up from an uncomfortable dream. Having a bad LSD or mushroom trip is a magnitude more likely to be adverse in both the short and long term.

>it is impossible to OD on benzos alone, which is false.

>It's nearly impossible to kill yourself with it (benzos) alone

>nearly.... alone

>alone

Please read the guidelines about bad-faith posting.

Overdosing on Alprazolam without potentiating other medications is EXTREMELY uncommon. Look at the stats.

Speaking of stats...

>Go to erowid and study up from there, instead of taking OP's obviously projected advice.

And after you've read it, all the anecdotal evidence will heavily lean towards my OBVIOUS concise assessment; but, this is HN.

Scrape the reports, run it thru your favorite LLVM sentiement holistic, make an objective word-map, then tell me, on average, that I am not accurate in my obviously condensed assessment.

LSD has, almost universally, an uncomfortable come-up, and a "burning" cleansing feeling.

Mushrooms, objectively, make your stomach hurt, have body load, and can a much larger variance in dosage due to the nature of its procurement.

4acoDMT is better, xan+LSD microdosing is safe, and DMT is, without a doubt, the safest, most intense, life-changing, one-shot attempt of a awakening, any mortal, experienced or not, will ever have the opportunity to exerience.

The list of drugs that exist that I haven't witnessed first hand is smaller than those you could name.

Ayahuasca, while we are this note, however, is NOT something middle-aged suburbanites should dip their toes in.

That is the equivalent of a DMT trip with the length of heavy LSD trip.

THAT is the media and common conceptions yall should whitenight about.

> 4acoDMT is better, xan+LSD microdosing is safe, and DMT is, without a doubt, the safest, most intense, life-changing, one-shot attempt of a awakening, any mortal, experienced or not, will ever have the opportunity to exerience.

Benzos are associated with cognitive impairment (we have studies for medium and long term users showing cognitive impairment even 10 months after discontinuation) and are highly addictive. Acute use as you prescribe is "probably fine" insofar as we have data to support it but given the risk of addiction, no, Xanax is not safe.

Trying to get ahead of a bad trip by taking other drugs is generally a bad idea.

Yes, there's many other hallucinogens people could be taking that would give a better, kinder, more concretely messaged trip but they're simply not widely available and medical literature on health risks are scarce or in the negative.

We know LSD and psilocybin leads directly to neurogenesis and that the health risks are minimal, short of a psychotic break or delusion leading to the idea one can fly or some other risky belief.

https://www.beckleyfoundation.org/2018/06/13/psychedelics-pr...

DMT is not so docile. It's fucked up at least two people I know. Not ayahuasca, just DMT. One of them lived 40 years of life, complete with happy marriage, before it was violently ripped away from them 15 minutes later in meat-time.

The last mushrooms I had gave me no stomach pain and no body load. It's fascinating what genetics the growers are isolating nowadays.

Methinks your bubble is still a bit small.

I would only recommend shrooms for the beginner.

LSD is way too intense for the casual and DMT imo is scary even if it is short.

eh, this post is seriously misguided. the experience on DMT is relative; you might feel like you have been gone for days or months even if the clock tells you 15 min have gone by. furthermore, the power of DMT, with its sudden onset, can feel quite violent, literally like a drive-by shooting, or beamed up a la Star Trek.

curious people, please look into the concept of "pharmakon"; the knowledge gained from drug usage often does not come without a reciprocal cost, and the sense of elevated consciousness can be fraught with illusion and the same old tricks of the ego.

I have had many life changing experiences under the influence of drugs (one of the most powerful, under the influence of DMT), but in my opinion it extremely misguided to recommend it wholeheartedly to people without a very strong disclaimer regarding its adverse effects.

When I used DMT properly, for the first and last time, I experienced temporary ego-death. Afterwards I re-lived "my trip" every single night for almost a year, having the same dream, over and over again. In my waking hours I would sometimes find myself fusing with my environment (real-time temporal loss of self) "at one with everything".

Undergoing this process helped me "find myself", but the experience was dangerously close to full-blown psychosis - tl;dr drugs are a powerful and useful substance, be aware of the risks before taking, and do not recommend to others; DYOR and decide for yourself.

If you had a decent dose, then yes, for weeks/months after, you can close your eyes, think, and start to see shapes.

It is not what D.A.R.E describe as LSD, being stored in your spinal fluid - more of a HPPD/PTSD artifact of the more benign variety.

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