Hacker News Reader

Comment by tptacek | Hacker News Reader

It's a big deal. Not "lightening up" is a service to the company (and, I guess, the whole industry). I'm married to a woman who has put up with a lot of shit in this field (for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) and am the father of an absurdly intelligent 10 year old girl who will, with enough not- taking- one- iota- of- shit for the next 10 years, not have to suffer any of this.

So I guess what I'm saying is thanks.

View on HN

Well, I guess I ought to weigh in on this one, since I am the interviewee in question. First, the story.

During the interview, I was interrupted while answering a question with, "I think I have a tick." My brain immediately thinks, "He's on eBay and has just won a copy of The Tick." But then he swivels the monitor around to show me a flesh-colored rectangle with a round, red area in the middle of it. I'm pretty sure that while we were talking, he stuck the camera into the back of his trousers and took the picture, as I recall seeing a flash and him fiddling with connecting the camera. However, it was my first interview in a long time, and I was very nervous about returning to paid employment after 6 years as a stay-at-home-mom.

What did I do? I gave him instructions for how to remove it. After all, I am a mom.

So... I've been "in technology" for a long time. In middle school, I picked the locks to let myself into the computer lab. In high school, I was the only female student in CS (also trigonometry and pre-calc). In college, I was the only female ever in the computer lab. I studied audio engineering -- which is a great deal less friendly to women (or was) than IT. I have dealt with a lot of weird situations that would not have occurred if I were male. On the plus side, I've never had to wait in line for the toilet.

This is my opinion: shit is going to happen and you have to roll with it. Given your life experience and temperament, this may be challenging for you. But if you want something bad enough, you'll find a way to get it, no matter how much shit you have to step in on the way.

My observations: men harass each other with equal or greater tendency than their female peers. Myself, I have said things to my male co-workers that have caused them to make the "that was inappropriate" flinch. Also, we can't squelch biology, no matter how smart we are -- if there are boobs in view, his lizard brain is going to notice them.

My hypothesis: men are socialized to shrug it off or suck it up, and may even become desensitized to it after a while. Women are socialized differently. To be frank, I don't completely "get women," even though I am one. Two events in my life have forced me to interact with large and varied groups of women, first being motherhood and second being roller derby training. I somehow managed to offend some of these women, and I'm never quite sure how I do it. But once it happens... they pretty much avoid me like I'm diseased. Anyone, male or female, who reacts to something unsavory in this way is simply going to have a harder time getting by in business. Or anything else, for that matter. Curiously, women seem to be much, much better than men at ignoring their lizard brain. Might be nature, might be nurture, but it is a definite advantage.

If I had a dollar for every time someone has told me to lighten up (or, in the case of my mom, Erliechda!), I'd be driving a Veyron around my private island. And sometimes it does weigh pretty heavily on me that, no matter how hard I bust my ass, there is always going to be some person who wants to write me off for attributes I cannot control. But that's where you learn who your friends are, right? There is a long list of people in my life who have plenty of respect for me, ask me for advice on stuff and things, and treat me like a regular human being. I prefer to be thankful for those people than let the rest drag me down.

Katie, you get nothing but empathy from me for how you feel, despite how critical this post may sound. I have a son and a daughter. The world does treat them differently. Nobody has ever "taken me aside" to tell me I am "going to have trouble" with my son when he gets older. It's flat out offensive to have a teacher deride my baby girl for being outspoken and spunky. It is painful to see what criticism does to her self-esteem. When someone IWASJUSTs you, they are being twice rude. So this is what I told both my kids, "If you had a $20, would you give it to $BULLY_NAME?"

"No," they responded.

Well, if you wouldn't give someone a $20, then don't give them the power to hurt your feelings.

Here's me and my wife disagreeing.

Which is fine. Our daughter will learn how to toughen up and roll with the punches from Erin, and to not take any of this shit from me, and hopefully synthesize that into the CEOship of some galactically huge company from which she will fund our retirement.

Crazy interview story. Way inappropriate and at the very least shows he wasn't even paying attention. I'm a stay-at-home dad to my 18 month old son and also get nervous about what the job hunt will be like once I return to work. I guess when the time comes at least I can console myself with the knowledge that I probably won't have to deal with the interviewer showing me pictures of a tick on their ass. :-)

men harass each other with equal or greater tendency than their female peers...men are socialized to shrug it off or suck it up, and may even become desensitized to it after a while

I'd say that's pretty accurate - maybe shrugging off a little harassment is how we guys try to prove we're confident to each other.

job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass;

Holly horror story!

Sadly I am not surprised to hear this, because I've heard many similar stories. And yet out of the very large number of male friends in the industry I have, including myself, none of us have ever or would ever do anything like that. The paradox here is answered by the fact that a tiny share of creeps will always be found in any sufficiently large set of humans. And the larger the set, the bigger the number of creeps.

Thus I think the only way to guarantee this kind of thing becomes part of the past is to radically increase the share of women in the industry.

Now, that doesn't prevent creeps from being creepy, but it does guarantee that the small number that they must be, can never be creepy to a large number of women.

This is kind of depressing as it basically assumes we can never completely get rid of creeps. But does anyone believe 100% proper behavior, from 100% of the people, 100% of the time is possible?

Certainly not. But I can certainly empathize with a complaint raised in the article. Essentially, if you know "Lighten up" seems equivalent to acknowledging the lack of respect being shown, but refusing to own up to it. While it's easy for you to say "Oh, I only said one thing! Why is she so mad?" thats, sort of the entire point of the article - everyone just saying one thing adds up to a lot.

I think you're correct that the best solution is to increase the number of women in technology.

However, as members of that community today, you and I and our male friends can call out the creepy dudes making inappropriate remarks 100% of the time we hear them. Creating an environment where people feel comfortable doesn't have to mean getting rid of all bad actors; it can be enough to make it clear that bad actors are found universally unacceptable.

Creeps are a part of every industry; they are more aptly described as "Bullies" - and can be both male and female (though I admit the male, sexist, bully is very prevalent in our industry).

These people tend not to just be sexist; they bully their male workers as well - crude remarks for example, put downs, superior attitudes.

I once had a female (client) lean over the desk to me, with a low cut blouse, and say "My cleavage intimidates you doesn't it".

I suggest that, as this blogger noted, the minority of creeps & bullies aren't really the problem. You can deal with them a lot more easily by moving on, firing them, refusing their custom - etc.

The issue is the sort of subtle remarks that the people making them don't realise are upsetting. They are not unlike-able, unlike bullies, just a bit clueless.

And fixing this is not easy, because you might really get on with the guys in your office, just wish they'd stop commenting on your ass!

I completely agree, such behavior is not gender related. But males are trending higher, usually because the percentage of male bosses is higher. Social status and power tend to release some inner devils.

Also agree about side comments - it is not easy to stop those. That's why it is important to understand each of those individuals and find a way to deal with each one. No need to be a hardass to the person, just need to punish specific actions.

While you are correct in this instance, the original article is complaining about subtle inequalities that go unnoticed or tolerated by a much larger portion of the industry than just the "creeps".

And the existence of that behavior is an obstacle to increasing the share of women in the industry.

job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass;

What the hell? How on earth did that happen, I really can't imagine why anyone would think that doing this could possibly have a positive income without having drunk a minimum of 5 beers.

You know here's the thing. I have had female co-workers complain about being asked in interviews at other companies as to whether they'd quit their jobs (rather than taking paid/unpaid leave) if they had kids. I would quietly listen, take notes in my heads as to which companies to avoid working at.

There are two things that come to mind.

These companies are ones where shit floats so to speak and nothing good will come out of those for anybody.

They are also usually ones who feel unusually entitled to way too much of their workers' personal lives generally.

In the Netherlands this is illegal to ask during a job interview (or perhaps in general, as a boss, I'm not sure). What country was this in?

It was in the US. The company can get in trouble for that here. But even if it were legal, there is no way anyone should want to work for a company where such is asked.

But then I wouldn't work for a company that insisted they wanted to read my personal email either and that's been happening more and more lately :-P

Wow, in the European Union that would be illegal. I'd presume the USA has similar laws banning discrimination based on family status (that might fall under gender aswell). In which case the reply to that question should be "Isn't it against the law for you to ask that?"

job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass;

I'm intrigued. How the heck did that scene play out? How exactly do one produce an image of his ass in an interview. How come he had one taken in the first place. So many questions ..

As a woman, a woman in tech AND a mother to a little girl: thank YOU.

Thank you for supporting your wife, thank you for teaching your daughter that she doesn't have to take this crap, and thank you for not being part of the problem in the first place.

What would have been the appropriate response to the picture? Can someone give me a pattern to work with here?

edit: I haven't run into sexism yet (still a student, but a female in a male-dominated field) and I don't want to be the deer in the headlights when it happens for the first time. And it seems that it will happen, the way everyone talks about it.

She sat through the rest of the interview like a professional and then came home to unload it. The thought of her continuing to sit through an interview after having that happens is unbelievably infuriating to me even today. If there's ever anything I can do to harm the interests of someone who I know did that, I will (my wife, who often has a cooler head than I, is past this and would disapprove of me providing details about who did this).

Your legitimate options in this case are, as I understand it:

(a) Instantly acknowledge that you will never in a million years work for a team where this could happen and then passively coast through the rest of the interview and get out as fast as you can, and/or

(b) Document everything that happened and provide it to the manager of whoever interviewed you (in Erin's case: no such manager!) --- incidentally, having stuff like this happen in an interview creates a radioactive statutory liability which any employer with a general counsel will probably fire the interviewer over. or

Option (c) has a lot of benefits to the community; option (b) is the direct response that will have the most immediate impact to the situation; option (a) is (unfortunately) usually the most coldly rational.

>(for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened)

Why? Because you would have beat his ass? Cause you would have shown him what happens when he comes on to your woman? You would have had an unkind word with him? Do you not believe your wife can handle herself?

Trying to bash down a gender role by reinforcing another is pretty silly.

Ridiculous. Coming to your partner's defense is not a matter of gender, but one of loyalty. Reverse the genders in this case and the threat still applies.

Only thing is, this would not be coming to partners defense, but pointless chest-thumping. Now, I think I know what he meant by writing that, and I doubt he'd actually do anything other than being nice to her and supporting her in whatever she chooses to do with it, but the expression still matters.

The brainwashing gets us all. It's sad when it gets us while we're trying to be supportive. The proper expression is "I was horrified and angered by it," not "I will respond to this by aggressive behavior not that much unlike what the other dude did". And proper response to someone noticing it is, probably, "oh... um, I didn't think about it like that, thanks, sorry", not "but I had good intentions!!!"

> "I will respond to this by aggressive behavior not that much unlike what the other dude did"

He showed a naked picture of himself to her in a situation where the default balance of power was firmly in his favor. An interviewer blotting himself (if only using a photograph) in front of a potential peer or subordinate is an act of sexual aggression if I ever saw one, and you are claiming some sort of moral equivalence with reacting aggressively to it? You cannot be serious.

> The proper expression is "I was horrified and angered by it,"

I was horrified and angered by it, and I know very well that assholes who show their bare butt pictures in interviews are incorrigible bastards, and if I happen to meet one, I am afraid I won't be able to contain myself(not too sure I would want to), so it was for the best I wasn't around.

That's what I mean: he apparently had issues with containing own instincts. And by saying "I am afraid I won't be able to contain myself" you actually state more-or-less the same — that you're aggressive and prone to act aggressively against your own better judgement.

Yeah, sure, people like him that should be shunned, and preferably prosecuted. But, actually, one of the reasons they feel free to do things like that is the culture of domination that's not really hurt in any way by people making violent remarks about them.

Or perhaps simply expressing anger is something he doesn't like to do near his family. It could be a rage issue, but more likely it would have interferred in smaller ways with his ability to be properly supportive. Perhaps he would have suggested a confrontational route (get lawyers involved e.g.) that would have made his wife uncomfortable. Perhaps done something like suggest ways to "fix" the problem, rather than just be there as a supportive spouse. Many people would be uncomfortable with those reactions in themselves, and therefore would not want to expose their family to it.

Amusingly, your statement "the brainwashing gets us all" was most appropriately applied to your own presumption that he would fit some male role when being uncomfortable with proximity and anger.

Comments like these are nauseatingly pompous. He never says anything about getting violent. You are projecting your own views on the matter.

Maybe his response would be to call the interviewer's boss and describe the actions. Maybe his response would be to write a blog post and do all the SEO in the world to make sure it shows up #1 every time someone Googles the company in question. You are assuming that the reaction he wants to contain is punching the interviewer in the face - when he never says anything to that effect at all. There are plenty of possible actions that are not violent and are not morally equivalent to the interviewer but are still plenty regrettable.

What about "Because he would have been angry about it, and sometimes we don't make the best decisions when we're angry?" Why go fishing for the least charitable reading?

That is what I meant, and why I said it was best for all involved. Thanks.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com