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Comment by b800h | Hacker News Reader

For the Americans coming into this thread later today (or up very late), it bears repeating that "contracting" arrangements in the US vs. EU/UK are very different beasts. Historically in the UK, contracting was/is a higher-risk venture (medium term sole-client freelancing) which carried concomitantly higher salaries, and in some verticals (government, for instance), it has been very difficult to find good developers who aren't contractors.

My understanding of the US is that typically "contractor" over there implies "consultancy worker" which is the staffing equivalent of shovelware.

Please correct me if wrong!

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You're not wrong, but you're also getting the full story. "Contractor" often is the title used for bodyshops. However, there's also tons of freelancers and Consultants, and "Consultant" can be a much less negative thing than you're implying.

Many of the higher-end software engineers negotiate their own contracts, and in doing so act as "Consultants", because corporate standard contracts don't work for them. It's not usually about pay - FAANG has pay ranges that go up - But in the before times, it included things like WFH and additional allowances for time off.

This did occur to me - the usage "Defense Contractor" - thanks for the clarification.

We moved to the US and my wife is doing freelancing, and the market rates here are ridiculous considering the cost of living and FTE rates.

For example recently I got an offer for a 4 months contract role at Microsoft, hybrid (so partly on site), as a Machine Learning Engineer for $65 an hour. I would consider that rate insulting even for low CoL EU countries.

I don’t know what magic land you come from, but that’s a pretty standard rate for a place like London which is definitely not low CoL.

Thats 420 gbp a day. For a contract thats a low rate.

To be honest it isn’t even a great rate for an experienced dev’s salary in London.

If you look at salaries posted by companies hiring here on HN you'd think they are. Factor in the audacity of "hybrid" and "onsite" and the cost of commute and rent and indeed it's a pretty low rate even for permanents.

I’ve not actually looked at the salaries posted on here to be honest. I know one thing, though. You’d need to triple that to get me to anywhere near an office.

Yeah, no, not going to happen in the UK. Software pay around here is truck driver level (happy for truck drivers, but comparatively they have less stress to deal with and if they like coding they can do it hasslefree on the side - will end up cleaner and more efficient than the spaghetti monsters i've seen in some of these companies).

Yeah, I’m aware (UK citizen planning an exit). 100% agree with you on the spaghetti monsters. Some of the code I have to review makes me want to give up and start baking instead.

I disagree with sibling comment; that’s definitely too low for a high-demand skilled position where you’re handing the administrative overhead and contract risk. With the enormous caveat that I’m not in the AI/ML space, I’d expect a rate 2-4x that for a staff augmentation arrangement. YMMV, I don’t know if you have an agency or other intermediary, etc.

I know this rate is too low because it pays less than the base salary of my current job (not counting stocks and bonuses), for a limited time contract and with less benefits.

I simply find the economics of freelance/contract work in the US baffling. The contract isn't even fully remote, so you can't take advantage of geo arbitrage and live in a cheaper place. I'd be surprise if they hire anyone more than an intern-level developer for that rate. FFS, I paid more for some dude to come and tidy my lawn.

> We moved to the US and my wife is doing freelancing ... I would consider that rate insulting even for low CoL EU countries

I wonder if these two phenomenon are related?

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are trying to get at with this comment.

In the US, when used alone, the term contractor generally means someone who works on construction sites: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_contractor

Indeed, that's what I thought the article was about, reading the title.

This is the same in the UK, it depends on context based on the industry. IT contractor is synonymous with freelancer in the UK traditionally.

Most of the UK population, if asked "what's a contractor" would assume construction.

When I lived in the UK for a bit, iirc people would use the term "builder" where I would say "contractor".

At least in American English vernacular, saying "he's a contractor" either means he builds houses, or he's an independent contractor (doing some "consulting-ish" work). The lack of context for that phrase is indeed confusing!

In the US, what you describe is often referred to as being an "independent contractor".

What is a vertical?

An industry segment - say Healthcare, Government, Media, Finance.

Thanks google

Ironically “vertical” is a very hard word to google

ChatGPT has you covered

Yeah, maybe if it has the original context.

Although, there's no shame in asking one of the walking, talking neural nets that have traditionally been willing to supply clarification, especially when they created the bit of context that is the source of confusion.

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