Elon Musk Silent on Man Sentenced to Death for His Tweets
newsweek.com
newsweek.com
This makes no sense. Free speech is an American value. Most societies, even other European-descended societies, do not share that value to the same degree, if at all. And it’s not the job of American billionaires to tell other societies how to govern themselves.
It hasn't exactly stopped them and I don't remember Elon ever couching his statements with "in the USA". I mean he wasn't even born in the US, wasn't a citizen till 2002, and holds citizenship in 2 other countries as well. I wouldn't exactly expect him to hold only to American values (or any values for that matter) nor is free speech a uniquely American value.
Also, let the saudis, russians, africans, iranians, chinese, indians, etc protect their own 'values' and let them punish people for 'disinformation' as they fit. The same propagandists complaining about foreign interference sure love to interfere everywhere.
Yes obviously.
> or are they pointing out that a U.S. based company should be more concerned about their investments or financial interests?
What? You think newsweek is looking out for elon's financial interests?
> Really, is this piece "interfering" abroad?
No. Saint media is worried about elon's financial well being.
So is looking the other way when Saudis murder people.
"Religion stupid, amirite guys?"
His entire rant is that God doesn't solve all the world's problems. But as a non-religious person, even I can tell you why that's a stupid argument because there's one answer every Christian (probably most other religions too) will give you: it's a test. And tests don't work when you're handed it all on a silver platter, frolicking through the fields of flowers, holding hands with the rest of the world.
That's called heaven. No (mainstream) religion ever said Earth was heaven. It is actually quite the opposite. Earth is closer to hell than it is heaven.
And it's not unreasonable to expect a personal response from Elon since he's such a publicly vocal person.
If Musk privately contacts MBS, and asks him to reconsider this – there is a chance he might convince MBS to quietly commute the sentence.
So, if you really want to save this man's life - urging Musk to speak out publicly about it may not be the best approach.
And I’m not defending MBS—but the reason I dislike Saudi is that they do the exact same moral universalism to the rest of the Muslim world, exporting Wahhabism to moderate Muslim countries. I see no reason for the US to get into Crusades 2.0.
When pressed on that (here and elsewhere in this thread) you keep pivoting to talk about what the US government, billionaires and corporations should or shouldn't do. But that wasn't the question asked.
I can only assume you keep pivoting to that angle because those are easier arguments to make and involve considerably less self-reflection.
You told them that it wasn’t their place to do anything. When asked to justify your position you invoked “Crusades 2.0” and George Bush.
You’re being blatantly disingenuous.
And OP’s use of “we” and “taking down MBS” aren’t consistent with your characterization.
Believing you shouldn't be brutally murdered for criticizing your government is not an American thing.
>What the f—k business do we have weighing in on Saudi society?
Some people believe basic human rights ought to be universal. Strange, I know.
>I see no reason for the US to get into Crusades 2.0.
Absolutely no one is suggesting that.
If you want to be beheaded by stating your opinions online, be my guest. But, personally, I would trust my country more, if it didn't aid financially those who bring terror upon their people. It's easier to trust it that way.
Public beheadings are acts of propaganda and to instill fear among the population. They only serve that purpose.
I don't care much for Musk or Twitter but in this case he's not wrong. Saudi Arabia is a sovereign country. Take it up with the Biden administration if you want American foreign policy to change- but we all know it won't.
Literally you can't even drive by the square because the entire area is packed with spectators there only to see the hand and head choppings.
Also, if you fight for this one person, you have to realize there are several put to death or getting their hands chopped off (for theft, etc) every week that are not being rallied for.
I believe it was Mondays, but it's more than a decade ago now, so I may not remember the specific day. But yea, it was a family entertainment event. I myself never went because I find the whole idea abhorrent. A number of people I was working with there wouldn't miss it for the world.
Working there gave me a whole perspective on totalitarian societies that I had not expected. I'm glad I don't live in one.
How true it is, who's to say. I find it rather plausible though.
That is to say that this sort of thing is not particularly unheard of. The cultural software of some modern countries may be a bit more progressed than others, but the human hardware of at least a significant portion of the world seems inclined to delight in punishment of those perceived as sinful.
> it's clearly meant to input fear on the people
I heard a Muslim who had attended these describe them. It's pretty interesting to understand there are some different concepts of justice at work. It's under control of the victim's family and various mullahs and even the executioner begs them to spare the life of the condemned.
I think if you asked many people through history which was the better death - by sword or after 30 years of solitary in a supermax, most would say the the first is humane and the latter monstrous. A beheading, especially by sword was really quite prestigious and painless back in the day.
As for the victim's family "control", are they really in control? Where they the ones condemning the victim?
Concerning the war in Ukraine. Personally, I find it worrisome how easy it's for someone to dehumanise the other side. And, seeing those clips, I understand the brutality that Putin brought into that country. If anything, it's more of a reminder of the brutality of war, and how these men (from both sides) are forced into killing eachother. One side defending their country, and the other, defending the will of a madman.
Sharia law distinguishes three types of crime – hudud, qisas, and tazir. A hudud crime is one where the penalty (whether death or some lesser punishment) is mandatory under the law, and so must be carried out (although there are various mitigating principles which can be used to justify not doing so in a particular case). A tazir crime is where the penalty is up to the discretion of the judge (and the ruler of the state as lawmaker). A qisas crime is one where the punishment is "eye for an eye" retribution, and hence the victim (or their family) has the legal right to commute the punishment. Murder (in most cases) is a qisas crime, so the family of the victim has the legal right to commute the death sentence to a lesser punishment, and no execution will be carried out without the consent of the family. This is different from hudud or tazir crimes, where the victim (if there is one) has no legal entitlement to a say in the punishment.
An exception is something like a murder committed as part of a terrorist attack, which is simultaneously a crime against the victim (murder), but also a crime against the state (terrorism). Although the family of the victim still has the right to waive the death penalty for the qisas crime of murder, the state has the right to carry out the death penalty for the (tazir or hudud) crime against the state, so the offender will be executed irrespective of the family's wishes.
Honestly, although I am personally opposed to the death penalty, I actually think in some ways the Saudi system is less wrong than the US system. Under the Saudi system, an ordinary murderer cannot be executed if the family unanimously opposes their execution (in cases of disagreement, I believe Saudi law follows the wishes of the identified senior next of kin); in the US system, the prosecutors/courts/government are under no legal obligation to respect the wishes of the victim's family, and a murderer can still be sentenced to death and executed even if the victim's family are unanimously opposed to that outcome.
Also, although people denounce Saudi public executions as barbaric, I don't think private executions are any less barbaric than public ones. If anything, I think private executions are more barbaric, in that hiding what you are doing is a sign of a guilty conscience which knows it is really wrong. If voters can't stomach watching executions, they shouldn't be allowed to vote for them. (Saudis don't get to vote, at least not in any way that really counts–but it seems on this particular issue the Saudi government are doing the popular will–if you gave the Saudi people a free democratic vote on whether to retain the death penalty, I'm certain retention would win.)
The Ukrainian equivalent would be if the military was bringing captured soldiers to Kyiv and then publicly executing them to cheering crowds. And no one is doing that as far as I’m aware. And even that would be more defensible because Ukraine is ar war which is literally a state of decivilization, where the citizens of Ukraine have spent a year and a half watching neighbors being blown up and spent half their time in subway stations so they don’t get killed in a missile attack. That’s a level of PTSD (although it isn’t even “post” but continuous and ongoing trauma) that could bring the blood thirst out in any human.
And I don’t watch these videos so I don’t know, but as far as I’m aware they very rarely show any human body actually dying. It’s usually tanks being blown out or at worst I’m guessing tiny dots of humans just falling so even the gore is not visible. Finally, there is a difference between a video and watching a killing in person.
A closer equivalent would be Americans gleefully watching bombs falling on Baghdad which was horrendous, but different from when the Abu Ghraib pictures were released which were widely condemned and drew outrage among most, even though they didn’t even involve killing AFAIR but they involved mistreatment of captives who were under custody and not an active threat to anybody.
Is there a great strategy to deal with saudis? No, I’m with you in that, there’s not.
But it just shows how full of shit Musk is. He’s a high school bully, who talks when talk is cheap, attacks weak ones and back down immediately when someone actually confronts him.