Kagi now accepts PayPal, EUR and Bitcoin payments
blog.kagi.com
blog.kagi.com
People here roll their eyes at such things, but honestly if more want to move away from the panopticon based Surveillance Capitalist model of the current internet, then one has to be open to the fact these payment rails are vital.
Until regulations require KYC for these sort of transactions and then Kagi will need to collect data defeating the point of this.
Why do we still bother with crypto when close to nobody uses it for any legitimate purpose?
Regulations will change this and you will be unable to cash out unless you identify yourself to KYC.
cryptocurrency is not anonymous, it is pseudonymous so the privacy argument is completely moot.
Also crypto is a pyramid scheme at best, a ponzi scheme at its worst.
My argument isn’t moot because your intention is to violate my privacy, regardless of how good you think I am at protecting it. Again, keep your hands off my things.
No, things you voluntarily participate in aren’t scams.
The vocal detractor's hostility is only matched by the their ignorance and arrogance; they assume because they have no use for it that no else does either.
Again, I've tried to win them with reason, and even put challenges in order for them to put their money where their mouths are; but they just shirk it and go on about disparaging it without any real substance. o be fair, I think 99% of crypto are scams, too; what they don't realize is that is often their cohort (SBF and al the VC money and SV might behind him) who do the most scamming.
I'll go a step further:
Crypto has no use case that hasn't been already solved by the current financial system and it is not private at all.
In fact most users have dwindling and no confidence with crypto:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/10/majority-...
> Again, I've tried to win them with reason, and even put challenges in order for them to put their money where their mouths are; but they just shirk it and go on about disparaging it without any real substance.
And where is the substance in the crypto industry? The answer is the sum of the amount of use cases they are trying to find.
Zero.
Can't let forming opinion to chance, not here, not on reddit, not anywhere!
Source? or do you always keep making things up?
Even if I was being paid to post, I would not use crypto to accept payment.
We both know cryptocurrencies aren't private at all so it is moot point and a fool's errand to use crypto as a means for anonymous and private transactions
> No, things you voluntarily participate in aren’t scams.
So companies and small businesses have voluntarily participated in crypto phishing and crypto ransomware scams?
Why do you keep blaming victims and when are you going to stop?
No, and phishing and ransomware aren’t what you’re targeting. Since you intend on banning general usage of crypto, you need to prove I’m being scammed when I volunteer to run a set of instructions on my computer that are available for me to read. Which is an impossible task, because your response to my “I consent” is “No you don’t”.
It wouldn't because the coming regulations will compel those exchanges working with crypto to force you to use KYC to cash out your cryptocurrencies, even your cold wallet isn't safe from this.
Significant volatile prices and regular manipulative depeggings of stablecoins will force you to make a compromise to cash out to an exchange.
All roads lead to KYC in either case. So yes your privacy point is well and completely useless.
> No, and phishing and ransomware aren’t what you’re targeting.
But you know that businesses are being targeted which defeats your ridiculous previous point on 'No, things you voluntarily participate in aren’t scams.'
You're also ignoring the truth that they aren't private, so my point still stands and you know it.
Nobody accepts Monero, Bitcoin in the real world, so if you're serious about privacy you wouldn't use crypto.
> Since you intend on banning general usage of crypto, you need to prove I’m being scammed when I volunteer to run a set of instructions on my computer that are available for me to read. Which is an impossible task, because your response to my “I consent” is “No you don’t”.
This is complete nonsense, and won't hold in any court regardless of country. See my crypto ransomware argument that you keep ignoring.
“Scams occur so ban crypto” are the patriot act talking points and redistribution of consequences that I was referring to. Someone else being scammed is irrelevant to whether or not my participation is voluntary, and you need to prove my participation isn’t voluntary to justify banning crypto for everyone and not just scammers.
Nobody is ignoring any of your points, each one was addressed in my comment. You’re just throwing a tantrum now that you’re losing and repeating my words back to me regardless of how inapplicable they are.
When a person in your own family has been scammed by crypto scammers, it's also your problem. You have to be kidding yourself to think that pointificating your 'prove muh participation isn't voluntary' cosplaying schtick if going to work with anyone in your family.
It seems you're trapped in a perpetual fantasy libertarian worldview that is inapplicable with the real world.
> because the coming regulations will compel those exchanges working with crypto to force you to use KYC to cash out your cryptocurrencies, even your cold wallet isn't safe from this.
Dam bro, didn't know that the world government mandated this. Also "coming regulations" - So its still private. Thanks for the conformation!
> Significant volatile prices and regular manipulative depeggings of stablecoins
Ok bro.
> You're also ignoring the truth that they aren't private, so my point still stands and you know it.
Private is defined as "Secluded from the sight, presence, or intrusion of others."
I buy my bitcoin with cash, no kyc, and I coinjoin it. That's private.
> Nobody accepts Monero, Bitcoin in the real world
Kagi, vps providers, domain hosters, non-profits, email providers...
> it is pseudonymous
You even admit it is at the very least "pseudonymous"! Thanks for the support!
Also:
> So companies and small businesses have voluntarily participated in crypto phishing and crypto ransomware scams?
Oh my god! Someone got mugged and their cash got stolen. Clearly the only solution is to ban all cash!
> Kagi, vps providers, domain hosters, non-profits, email providers...
> I buy my bitcoin with cash, no kyc, and I coinjoin it. That's private.
The internet is not the real world. You tell someone on the street that they can use Bitcoin to buy Kagi search points and they'll laugh at you.
Sorry to break it to you, but if you're serious about privacy, using card to buy bitcoin just to make your transaction private defeats your point and coinjoin isn't private either and can be traced.
> You even admit it is at the very least "pseudonymous"! Thanks for the support!
So you can be traced. Not private at all, exactly.
> Oh my god! Someone got mugged and their cash got stolen. Clearly the only solution is to ban all cash!
So someone volunteered to get mugged after their cash got stolen?
How do you pay for your crypto ransomware to someone quickly overseas when the scammer is telling you to use crypto?
I said
> I buy my bitcoin with cash, no kyc
and you write:
>> using card to buy bitcoin ... isn't private
I don't use my card to buy bitcoin, that's the point. You've got the attention span of a tiktok addict.
> So you can be traced. Not private at all, exactly.
See my privacy argument that you keep ignoring. LMAO. Almost anything can be tracked, but it's well within my threat model, so private against anything but the most well funded attackers is private. Your argument is; "Why have a door? Someone could just use a tank to knock it down".
Welcome to threat modelling, buddy. We're glad to have you!
> So someone volunteered to get mugged after their cash got stolen?
Did you have a stroke while writing this? Take a break from the internet, my dude, your mental abilities are declining with every comment.
During a mugging your cash gets stolen, I was making sure you understood that, just in case. It now appears you really need it all spelled out to you.
> How do you pay for your crypto ransomware to someone quickly overseas when the scammer is telling you to use crypto?
How do you pay for a cash ransom when someone is holding you hostage?
Oh wait, you can do it normally. [1]
> coming regulations will compel those
Uh... ok dude [2][3].
> The internet is not the real world
Tell that to Google, Microsoft, Apple... etc [4]. Welcome to the age of technology.
[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/30/world/africa/ransoming-ci... [2]: https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/sec-loses-bid-rippl... [3]: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/14/ripples-court-battle-with-se... [4]:https://intheblack.cpaaustralia.com.au/economy/how-much-is-t...
Yes, so instead you have to risk your life to meetup with a scammer each time to convert your cash into magic beans, definitely sounds like the future of money, better pray they aren't armed.
Crypto ATMs are also not private and shutting down starting with the UK and other countries. This is all due to KYC / AML requirements, pushing you to inevitably do the above.
So sad that you and other bitcoin / crypto bro advocates have to go through and contort yourselves through these desperate ordeals just to get bitcoin which we all know isn't even private and can still be tracked.
> How do you pay for a cash ransom when someone is holding you hostage? > Oh wait, you can do it normally. [1]
Answering your own question because you know you can't answer mine is a nice deflection.
Unfortunately for you, your family and businesses, crypto ransomware is on the rise and using cash won't cut it.
So 'paying it normally' when the scammer explicitly wants you to send crypto quickly to them is a stupid answer that will destroy a business.
> uH... oK dUdE [oNe][tHrEe]
It's great you're showing the sum of all your reading comprehension skills.
Because since you only read news headlines, the SEC v Ripple case isn't finished at all, then again I wouldn't expect crypto bros such as yourself who can't look away from speculative crypto prices to understand that.
No matter how hard you try and cut corners or ignore it, crypto will be brought under regulations, the US is just slower than most other countries.
As for crypto itself, crypto has no use case that hasn't been already solved or made better by the current financial system.
> > because the coming regulations will compel those exchanges working with crypto to force you to use KYC to cash out your cryptocurrencies, even your cold wallet isn't safe from this.
> Dam bro, didn't know that the world government mandated this. Also "coming regulations" - So its still private. Thanks for the conformation!
And your response: Nothing!
> Significant volatile prices and regular manipulative depeggings of stablecoins
> Ok bro.
And your response: Nothing! Good thing I use only BTC and Monero!
>> You're also ignoring the truth that they aren't private, so my point still stands and you know it.
>Private is defined as "Secluded from the sight, presence, or intrusion of others."
>I buy my bitcoin with cash, no kyc, and I coinjoin it. That's private.
And your response: "using card to buy bitcoin...isn't private". Dam nice reading comprehension skills.
> > You even admit it is at the very least "pseudonymous"! Thanks for the support!
> So you can be traced. Not private at all, exactly.
Source? Or are you just taking out of your ass? Here are my steps, explain, step-by-step how you would track me down:
1. Buy Bitcoin from a BitcoinATM with Cash, no kyc and there are no cameras in the places I visit. I scan my QR code (which is off to the side, so no face), give it cash and its sent to my new wallet
2. I coinjoin the bitcoin
3. Profit
Go ahead, with sources.
> Crypto ATMs are also not private and shutting down starting with the UK and other countries. This is all due to KYC / AML requirements, pushing you to inevitably do the above.
Sources?
Also I don't live in Europe so not a problem. Also, even if I did KYC, coinjoin and cryptocurrency tumbler would take care of that.
Explain how you would defeat this, with sources.
> > How do you pay for a cash ransom when someone is holding you hostage? > Oh wait, you can do it normally.
> Answering your own question because you know you can't answer mine is a nice deflection.
If not crypto, giftcards will work in a pinch (personal, smaller than $5,000) [2]. And for larger amounts, what I already cited works. [1]
> SEC v Ripple case isn't finished at all
Thanks, Sherlock. Never said it was or wasn't.
> No matter how hard you try and cut corners or ignore it, crypto will be brought under regulations, the US is just slower than most other countries.
Any sources? Also, don't live in the US.
>> The internet is not the real world
> Tell that to Google, Microsoft, Apple... etc [4]. Welcome to the age of technology.
And your response, for the third time: Nothing!
Stop making stuff up. Cite your sources.
[1]: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2021/12/...
Look at yourself, it sounds laughly like this is the future for criminals to transact with, Crypto ATMs, Gift Cards, Coinjoins, No Cameras, Monero, etc.
Interesting that you go through all this desperate lengths for magic beans that you trust any old random Bitcoin ATM that could be built by anyone [1]. Yes, you guessed it, it can be traced [2].
[1] https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-atm-firm-profited-fro...
[2] https://hub.elliptic.co/analysis/fraud-and-scams-involving-b...
You can expect me to be laughing when another crypto crash happens and you'll be sprinting to the nearest Bitcoin ATM.
> Any sources? Also, don't live in the US.
India: https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/indias-push-regulat...
UK: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-sets-out-plans-to-regu...
Singapore: https://blockworks.co/news/crypto-singapore-license-standard...
> If not crypto, giftcards will work in a pinch (personal, smaller than $5,000) [2]. And for larger amounts, what I already cited works. [1]
Except gift cards don't work at scale. Crypto is way easier for criminals and is responsible for the amplification of ransomware which is on the rise.
https://www.techtarget.com/searchsecurity/news/366544598/Cha...
There is no upside to crypto at all and no normal person will perform / practice the fools errand that criminals and delusional utopian extreme individuals like yourself would engage in.
No really, bitcoin transactions can be seen?
That's literally one of the main points of a blockchain.
OMG, 8t9f8ibsfousghs sent 1 btc to 8o7tagoraiho8argf! Lmao, this tells you nothing about the wallet owner.
That tells you nothing about to whom it's going, and even if you could that why I:
> 2. I coinjoin the bitcoin
Going to skip over this again? No answer, buddy?
> [2]
Lmao, your own source, says "flow of funds from a Bitcoin ATM to.... Bitcoin mixing service known as Bitcoin Fog".
And that's where the trail ends. Seems that the mixers and coinjoins are working. Read your own source before posting. Even with KYC, it doesn't matter.
> India Singapore UK
Mixers and coinjoins were made for these situations in mind.
Still has no impact on me.
> [1]
Owners were aware fraud was going on and let it continue. Remind you of anyone [1-6]? I guess you shouldn't touch any sort of bank. They've been known to collapse and commit fraud on a massive scale. [7]
You can expect me to be laughing when another bank crash happens and you'll be sprinting to the nearest ATM.
> > If not crypto, giftcards will work in a pinch (personal, smaller than $5,000) [2].
> Except gift cards don't work at scale.
Source? And they do. [8] $233 million/year in one country. [9] And that's just social engineering, could do far more if there is an actual reason to pay.
> There is no upside to crypto at all
I can pay for the services I already listed in an above comment, without handing over my information to be breached or sold.
Are you a bot? We already had this conversation. You claimed that:
>>>>> Nobody accepts Monero, Bitcoin in the real world
I listed a few for you.
>>>> Kagi, vps providers, domain hosters, non-profits, email providers...
To which you said:
>>> The internet is not the real world.
And then hid from my response about
>> Tell that to Google, Microsoft, Apple... etc [4]. Welcome to the age of technology.
And once again you are hiding from:
>And your response, for the third time: Nothing!
Lmao, I can just use the same arguments since you are so scared of them!
This is the third time you have skipped over the same point because you are wrong.
Not to mention the other ones which I already pointed out.
Going to keep running?
[1]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-20/swedbank-... [2]: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/apr/17/deutsche-ba... [3]:https://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/business/bank-settles-us-... [4]: https://archive.nytimes.com/dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/06/30/... [5]: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/bank-america-pay-1665-billion... [6]: https://www.investopedia.com/stock-analysis/2013/investing-n... [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banking_crises [8]: https://www.forbes.com/advisor/personal-finance/gift-card-sc... [9]: https://www.rd.com/article/gift-card-scams/
> To which you said:
>>> The internet is not the real world.
>> And then hid from my response about
>> Tell that to Google, Microsoft, Apple... etc [4]. Welcome to the age of technology.
>> And once again you are hiding from:
>And your response, for the third time: Nothing!
Ask yourself, do any of these big companies you listed allow you to purchase goods with Bitcoin in a real world store? No? Irrelevant point you made then.
We both know that criminals like yourself use Coinjoin, and yet again this niche strategy is well known to lawmakers and it isn't going to fly with them.
So here’s how this is going to go down:
We all know that Monero is banned on most if not all exchanges [1, 2], KYC / AML checks are ramping up [3] and this will all lead to Coinjoin being effectively made illegal and the ATM slot machines being decommissioned.
The more people that use coinjoin the more it will be targeted resulting in the above, even if you claim it doesn't affect you.
You talk about ‘privacy’ yet the criminal activity with these tokens outweighs ANY fictional legitimate aspect of your use of Bitcoin.
Any desperate measure you take will be blacklisted and you will (as always) be left holding the bag unable to cash out.
> I can pay for the services I already listed in an above comment, without handing over my information to be breached or sold.
We both know that the large amount of activity on crypto is used for speculation and ransomware that you're still too scared to answer.
>>>> Kagi, vps providers, domain hosters, non-profits, email providers...
Still repeating your useless 'MuH KaGi' non-argument?
Kagi and those involved will be in trouble when the exchanges they try to cash out of detect a blacklisted conjoin address.
They will be either forced to comply with KYC / AML or forced to pay huge KYC / AML fines like what Coinbase did. [4]
So this how you plan to put a company out of business all for them to accept an energy intensive and wasting token that burns up the planet? Instead they will drop it like a rock and other merchants will do the same.
And yet you still can't answer the ransomware question because you know I'm correct?
> Going to keep running?
I shouldn’t see you running to your Bitcoin slot machine to cash out in a flash crash when Bitcoin's price drops only for the ATM machine to be out of service, shutdown or you joining a very long queue with other criminals trying to cash out.
1 — https://www.thestreet.com/cryptocurrency/dubai-bans-all-priv...
2 — https://www.binance.com/en/feed/post/585415
3 — https://cointelegraph.com/news/banks-with-crypto-services-re...
4 — https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/01/04/coinbase-...
Also, even though "web3" needs to go die in a fire, doesn't it kind of suck that there might never be a good equivalent to plain old cash for buying stuff online?
There are better ways of having privacy preserving payments other than cash without being identified or using a service, vouchers come to mind that Kagi can do rather than crypto.
It is still a grift and a scam as it is not 'really' anonymous at all so Kagi has wasted all this effort for something that no one that is legitimate user will use.
> it is not 'really' anonymous
When you pay cash in meatspace there is still a paper trail, CCTVs watching you, bank rules about large deposits/withdrawals, etc. "Anonymous" isn't a binary. And while Bitcoin et al isn't perfect (and I've never gone to the trouble of using it) it can't be any worse than all of my purchases being instantly datamined by Visa/Mastercard.
While I am personally not a crypto user, I think respecting the upvote mechanism as a legitimate way for Kagi users to steer the development of the platform is the least we can do if we want to call ourselves a user-centric company.
It was also an interesting learning experience, implementing it was much harder than we anticipated and I hope others in the same position can benefit from our learnings.
[1] https://kagifeedback.org/d/493-enable-anonymous-payments-ala...
Well done, never mind that guy, he clearly has an axe to grind and doesn't seem to grasp very much other than his out of touch talking points: did you look into using BTCPAY [0] server?
Things are still not as easy as they should, but have seriously advanced in the last few years.
Not all rosy and pink of course but at least there isn't a megacorp in the way who can just appropriate on your money with no recourse.
In Europe, some shops in tourist-heavy capital areas accept foreign currency.
It's generally not a thing, but if enough of your customers come in with something that you know you can eventually convert back into your own currency, you're a fool if you don't accomodate your customers.
Kagi happens to be a privacy-aware online service, and so they have a proportionally larger amount of customers who want to pay with internet money.
I really don't see how you can get offended about that.
This is literally one of those legitimate purposes.