EV Chargers Should Be Dumber
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Half the plugs don’t work.
The other half is at 1/4 speed, or less.
And because it’s all mostly older people, they don’t understand that it takes like 30 minutes to go from like 0 to 50% but 45-60 minutes to go from 50% to 100%. Which is annoying because:
With so few chargers, and the ones that are working at slow speed, it is VICIOUS out there. People in Porches yelling at other people to get spots.
I don’t know what it’s like for Tesla people, since its twice as much to charge than at the other chargers, but right now the road trip experience for EVs is awful just because of so few working chargers.
This is before you get to the 20-30 minute charge times.
Are you in Cali? In the midwest, Tesla chargers are still empty (like, in 45,000 miles of driving my tesla I have waited 1 time for ~5 minutes on a roadtrip). Even the non-Tesla chargers are cricket land still.
Obviously EV adoption is higher out west, but also I think more apartment living that need to public charge all the time. Out here - you would only ever charge on a roadtrip as 90% of charging is at home.
Fwiw I’ve never seen that “people in porches yelling” thing play out here in NL.
Wow that’s pretty bad then.
https://youtu.be/1Vm_ASm2zfs?t=294
"Stop number two was just as uneventful as stop number one." Once again, plenty of dispensers available, got charging on the first try.
Third stop, also uneventful.
Fourth stop, "this is getting really uneventful now, its like stopping at a gas station."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vm_ASm2zfs&t=717s
Is this a station with a wait list? Did it fail to charge? No, there were multiple dispensers open without anyone there and it worked on the first try. On his 1,200mi road trip they encountered one dispenser not working but there was another one unused right next to it.
So no, he's not constantly encountering long lines with belligerent people at multiple broken fast chargers, he's pretty much always rolling up to charging locations that are mostly empty and worked on the first try. Technology Connections is not the person to point to trying to showcase how bad charging is in the US. If you're going to paint his experiences as the norm, then I guess most CCS chargers do work fine and there aren't usually lines.
I personally have experienced those frictions myself, in my limited EV experience. I am glad that you have had a better experience - I absolutely want non-Tesla charging networks to be high reliability and easy to use! For everyone, but also for myself, since I don't want to purchase a Tesla.
In the final analysis, I don't know how Technology Connections feels about the state of non-Tesla charging networks. In fairness, I'm not sure you do either. It sounds like his experience was more positive a year ago. But from his most recent video, it doesn't sound like he feels like non-Tesla charging networks work very well or reliably.
To be clear on one point: I haven't encountered lines or interpersonal conflict at charging points. I have encountered plugs not working, payment not being accepted, and rates lower than advertised capability. Before I had those experiences, I had heard people on HN complain about CCS charging network reliability. After, I saw Technology Connections complain about it. All I can say is that my experience has corresponded with those reports.
He does briefly touch on charging networks should work on reliability and just having a new connector won't necessarily improve reliability, but I'm not disagreeing with that. I've got no doubts those who do have bad experiences legit had bad experiences, I'm just suggesting it's often regional and not like every non-Tesla station is plagued with non stop problems. And given his own video publications it seems like his area and the places he traveled had reliable chargers. Maybe most of the issues are on the West coast. Either way that's not half the video nor is it really him talking personal experiences.
Also, kind of funny you're suggesting I watch a video when you refuse to watch one that rebuts your own points. You might want to re-watch both videos if you want to understand his experiences with EV charging. He's got a few of them, and they're generally not filled with routinely bad experiences.
Also, go check out Out of Spec Reviews. They've got a number of videos rightfully critical of the charging networks and several videos showing lots of them failing all at once. But notice how in most of his videos with CCS cars, the experience is almost always rolling up to a station with empty ready to use dispensers, plugging in, and getting a charge. And it doesn't get brought up like some "woah, its actually working this time!" No, instead he'll mention " these are some great Delta units" or "these ABB chargers are top notch" if anything gets mentioned at all. So obviously his experiences, which this is a guy that seems like he's practically on the road every day in multiple different EVs, seems like it's mostly that they work but with some big examples of them not.
"So now, why are automakers suddenly itching to make this switch? Well, there's a pretty simple answer: the CCS charging networks available here in the US all kinda suck."
Now, is that judgement based on his "personal experience?" I don't know. But that's what he says. He does say about Electrify America that while he's never "been stranded" by it, (18:37), he describes having problems with using the app to use the chargers. He describes more than half the stations having broken NFC readers. He says "It wasn't great and that experience is happening to far too many owners of new EVs." "Meanwhile, the Tesla supercharger network largely just works." He implies that redundancy at EA stations is insufficient (20:42). At 21:07 says that activating the charger is harder than it needs to be...
At 21:30: "The main problems with CCS networks are poor maintenance, horrible up-time, largely terrible apps which are often the only way to start charging, ..." He then says: "Let me go through those one-by-one." And the he does.
Through 26:56 (this section is labeled "The Many Reasons We're Switching"), he describes issues with non-Tesla charging networks. (You're right that he doesn't blame CCS for the problems, and neither do I.)
I didn't watch your video because I conceded your characterization of it. You don't agree with my characterization of this video, but I think you missed this section.
I don't think it's reasonable to characterize his take on non-Tesla CCS charging networks in this video as anything other than quite negative.
As for the app experience, I wouldn't know, I don't use apps to activate the chargers. And that sounds like that was easily half his personal frustrations.
Do you have a CCS car? You mention a limited experience with charging networks. How many years have you used them? How many times have you tried charging at a non-Tesla charger?
I don't accept or trust your pivot to personalize the discussion by focusing on my personal experience. I never said I had vast experience with EV charging (I said it was limited). But for the benefit of anyone reading this thread, I will tell you my experience, and then I'm going to disengage with you.
I have owned a CCS vehicle (Toyota Rav4 Prime) for about 6mo. I live in San Francisco. I have tried to charge it about a dozen times at non-Tesla chargers. I succeeded one or two times. I have also observed friends charge their Tesla vehicles at Tesla chargers about a half dozen times.
In my personal experience, I have had connectivity problems (unable to pay because NFC didn't work, and EA app had no signal in a garage), and chargers labeled as up in the EVgo app were not functional. On the Plug Share app I have seen a non-functional station (https://www.plugshare.com/location/37345), where it has been labeled as up for over 12mo, during which time it has never worked. It happens to be the exact station I have most wanted to use.
Those are some of the exact problems Technology Connections mentions, which is why his video did resonate with me.
It sounds like you've had a good experience with non-Tesla charging, which is great. I wish my experience was as positive as yours, because I am unable to charge at home at my rental unit. I would love to have a great experience with non-Tesla charging, both for myself, and for wide adoption of non-Tesla EVs. It sounds like where you live non-Tesla charging infrastructure works more reliably than it has for me here.
Maybe you're going to tell me I'm a moron and don't know how to charge my car. But I haven't had a great experience at it.
I'm not suggesting the non-Tesla chargers are perfect, I'm not even saying they're particularly great. They do need to have faster turn around when even a single dispenser goes offline. They've been adopting regular credit card terminals over needing the apps, which is how it should have been from the start. I'll definitely agree overall Tesla charging experience is better. They've been way more responsive to problems and made the better bet on cheaper but easier to replace components. I agree with practically everything he said in that video, but that doesn't mean it was personal experiences. A lot of my "they need to improve" agreement is looking at plugshare around the country, reading comments like yours, seeing videos on YouTube from places like Out of Spec Reviews, and others, but not much personal other than seeing like 1 of 4 chargers out at the places I've gone to.
I'm just suggesting it's not the way the OP said it is across the entire United States. The poster was essentially describing a charging hellscape, someone asked if it's like that across the whole US, and you said yes based on your experience in SF. Well, maybe SF isn't the whole US.
I am trying to suggest Alec's experience isn't as bad as failing to charge 83% of the time. It sounds like he had a road trip where the EA app was glitchy (which he'd prefer to use over a credit card as his car has free charging through the app), he's run into a few dispensers which should have worked save for a broken clip and used another one at the site, and he's seen some percentage of dispensers out of service when he's gone to charge but still managed to charge. But from most of the content he's posted over both of his channels and other channels he's participated in, it looks like his overall success rate is much higher than 17%. Can we agree on that?
Another poster here mentioned plenty of empty chargers in the Midwest. Another mentioned no problems in the PNW outside of holidays. Multiple people in California talk about charging hellscapes. Maybe it's not a US thing? Maybe we shouldn't tell people it is?
It's really not though? I've never come across an L2 charger that doesn't just work. The DC fast charging is where the problems always arise. At least with an L2 charger, the hotel/apartment can easily track the power consumption being utilized, and also lock it down to only allow charging as they see fit via mobile app, NFC card, or pin. With a 14-50 it's a free-for-all.
My point is: I've never plugged in a working J1772 and had it fail to communicate or fail to charge if it's an otherwise working charger. I've definitely seen that with DC chargers and there are plenty of known issues between certain models of cars and certain brands of DC fast chargers.
I charge at home 99% of the time so it's rarely an issue, but I need to be more cautious on road trips than I hoped. Next time I'll plan ahead to charge earlier.
However I don't understand your comment about Tesla's costing twice as much. In Italy Tesla's for Tesla owners il less than half compared to 3rd parties (90ish cents kWh vs 44ish)
Tesla's chargers are usually the only ones that work at all, so they can charge whatever they want for their product.
They are building new stations in the US faster than one per day (over 400 last year, tracking to over 500 this year). Each stations contains at least 8 chargers, some have 12, 24, 40, or even more.
Charging stops are usually 10-20min since it's best to use the fast part of the charging curve and move on if you're trying to maximize trip speed.
Definitely agreed about fast chargers needing to be reliable and smart. Part of Tesla's magic is a charge network and in-car navigation that talk to each other so you are routed to working chargers at the right part of your trip. And congested chargers can be automatically routed around.
Hopefully the new agreements in the US allowing other cars to access Tesla's network will promote more competition all around between charging providers to provide a better experience.
In the UK the level 2 charger is just a plug and the user supplies their own cable. It cuts cost, cuts down on vandalism, and makes the car side port no longer as important.
Using NEMA plugs instead of smarter level 2 chargers has the big limitation that you need a ton of adapters to support every possible plug type. Tesla sells as set of 8 adapters and it still doesn't include two of the most common RV park plugs: https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters
Those RV site plugs handle 1-2 cycles daily, but they're more robust, more expensive versions.
I figure most would get like 4-5 cycles a week, not 7-14. That's a difference of like 460 cycles a year.
That sounds really inconvenient, actually. There I would have to carry around a charger while driving? I like just plugging in and not having anything in my trunk.
DC fast chargers are considerably more complicated though.
Source?
To add insult to injury -there are failure points everyway through this process. Not enough bandwidth to download the bloated app, the email verification doesn't work. Have you tried calling the support number on a charger? That's really an exercise in self torture.
So yes, EV Chargers should be a lot dumber. Take my money, give my electrons, and screw off about everything else.
The Electrify America app works exactly as well as you would expect. Which is to say barely at all. First it is slow. Like, calling-a-thousand-recursive-lambdas slow. Second, it will get stuck on previous sessions so you can't start a new one. Third, support's script tells them to make you log out even though this doesn't fix the problem. Fourth, the login form in the app doesn't tag the password field to utilize iOS keychain so after logging out you have to know your password off the top of your head. The entire experience is one unending papercut. It's modern UXD meets bootcamp quality code.
And it's still the best network I have used! Chargepoint may as well not even exist!
I suspect the UX in the app is so poor because nobody really uses the app to initiate charging. Just tap your phone and done. It even works without cellular signal. With such superior UX I don't see why anyone still uses the app.
Granted, it was a shared station that was sharing what was probably only a 20/240 circuit but ... it worked.
(California)
CC readers are all that is necessary, and many if not all charging stations have card readers.
I've absolutely done many charging sessions at EVGo, Electrify America, Chargepoint, and others by just swiping a credit card.
Because you installed them I guess? The only app I have on my phone is Plugshare and I use CCS chargers every now and then, every time its been either plug and charge or credit card chip read.
It's really no different if someone wants to download the Chevron app to get discounts at a gas pump. It's individuals' choice whether the hassle of an additional app is worth some discount.
A dumb outlet, if metered properly, would still need some app or something to be able to restrict you from just taking power infinitely. That's not scalable, unfortunately. It can be offered as an amenity for certain businesses, but as more EVs exist, you'll likely see these free offerings go away.
Most RV parks that let you use an EV charge you per day. And it's usually quite expensive, far more than the power you'd consume. $30-50/day isn't unusual.
- They want to support billing - which requires network access, at least for the station itself
- They want to minimize the cost of the station both up front and maintenance. Fewer cables and accessories (eg, card readers) helps a lot here
- Much of their target audience is inside of parking garages where cell reception can be spotty. This means mesh is a must and bluetooth for client connectivity is best.
- They need to have power metering built-in and there are related regulatory concerns due to usage based billing
All of this means that it can't be a truly dumb device. What they've come up with is essentially the lowest cost solution that can possibly work.
Hey guys, this thing is "green". Well, we couldn't actually paint it green, so it's blue, but that's as close as we could get it!
Seriously though, the problem is mostly that these are all new with a very different model from being a gas pump (due to longer charge times). They also throw the chargers into random retail locations, they are completely unmanned, and everyone except Tesla pretends maintenance need doesn’t exist.
There's nothing stopping people from having a pay-at-the-pump style chargers. I'd advocate for it. I'm just saying that we basically already have this, except it requires apps at the current time for some of them. That has nothing to do with smart vs not.
Cars are designed to use AC. That's how all current Level 2 chargers work. They are basically dumb outlets plus a contractor, GFCI, and optionally a payment terminal. But beyond a certain level (around 20kW) the size and cost of putting a larger AC to DC converter in the car is prohibitive.
At one point Tesla Superchargers were literally racks of the same AC to DC converters found in the car, but fed with 3-phase power, bussed together, and cooled all external to the car. There's no other way to implement a reliable 20-minute roadtrip charge.
(Really it's an "EVSE" not a charger, it is doing no charging work)
They have a couple of extra safety features (like a contractor and GFCI) and include the cable (in North America, in countries with the Type 2 connector you bring your own cable).
These chargers go up to 19.2kW commonly in the US, although the charge rate can be limited by the installation (circuit size) or the car (onboard charger capacity).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMxB7zA-e4Y
Really the only difference with the fancier ones is they have a screen and payment terminal or NFC terminal for activating and paying. Like a gas pump, although most want you to use their app and membership to save (them) on credit card processing fees.
DC fast chargers are a whole different story, where the AC to DC conversion happens external to the car.
Most of the apps have some sort of balance that lets you make one $10 transaction and then spend it on a lot of smaller charge sessions.
Anyway shifting around the costs doesn't change the fact that paying ~30% in fees is very inefficient
I'm not sure if this is so widely used as to not be worth mentioning, or if there are hidden gotchas or patent encumbrances that keep it from being widely used.
I'm scratching my head here. The old gas/diesel dispensing stations have solved this problem of restricting people taking all of the fuel in the pump with a disruptive financial technology called blo^H^H^H credit card. And I am really, really struggling to understand why I cant buy electricity directly with my credit card. (I do understand why the app might be better experience in many ways, but it is no excuse for not making it possible to pay with card without stupid obligatory app)
https://www.nfcw.com/2023/08/07/384966/eu-mandates-contactle...
Presumably the Brexit dividend will allow UK EV owners to continue to have to deal with a gazillion shitty apps.
I wish they'd do the same for car parks.
So much the better to pay less fees, but I can't imagine it is really driving anything.
Isn't that precisely a major point of the apps and the rest of the faff involved? Of course the systems are overengineered if you ignore that requirement.
At an RV park, maybe charge a small premium if that is even needed.
Our current fueling infrastructure does not care what brand of vehicle I have. It does not require any particular payment method -- I can even pay cash! It is permissionless.
I'll buy an EV as soon as we they have permissionless fueling.
Safety is a red herring. Legacy fueling is far more dangerous than EV fueling -- we're talking about combustible hydrocarbons for crying out loud.
Step 1. Please understand the technology before you complain about it.
There is no such thing as NACS-to-CCS adapter currently. If there was it would do no good at a AC charging station.
Fast chargers should be smart. They should report their status and availability, so you (and your in-car nav) know which chargers are working or congested.
The car should be smart, and navigate you to these chargers (with options of course if you have preferred routes, stops, charger brands, etc.). The car knows when to schedule a charge so you will arrive with an optimal battery charge (low) and not spend extra time charging all the way to 100% when it is faster to move on to the next trip segment.
Fast chargers should also take payment either via plug-and-charge that bills a single account linked to your car (ie Ford BlueOval pass), or take tap-to-pay directly on the charger without an app or account requirement. The latter is a requirement of the federal infrastructure funding for EV fast chargers.
Destination chargers are great and can absolutely make EVs a daily convenience for many. But I've taken many road trips in my EV that simply would not have been possible with basic dumb outlets as my only way to charge.
https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-adds-standalone-scree...
No. No it won't. It's helpful TODAY for homes and office buildings and hotels. Destinations. But as the author said himself, it was limited to below 10kw/hr. That means your average Tesla will require roughly 7 hours for a full charge, or 20 hours for your hummer EV. It's unlikely you'll need a FULL charge, but if you're at work for 8 hours, that's not a problem. Or at home sleeping, not an issue. But for any long distance driving? No dice.
We *need* fast charging. We need smart chargers that can handle multiple cars intelligently until we get to a point where battery and capacitor technology is far enough along to rival gas.
The average consumer doesn't want to futz with a J1772 adapter to get free EV charging when on an errand - let alone tinker about with a dozen adapters, plug ends and whatnot. Now if someone is an EV enthusiast, no problem. They probably have all the adapters and more with them all the time (I do).
At the end of the day, the 14-50 argument is a bit like saying "Everyone should carry their own fuel pump with themselves. That'd be so much easier than all these fancy gas station pumps. Just let people dangle the hose directly into the tank and pump it out themselves." Oh.. and just as dangerous.
Destination charging is a thing. You go shopping, you top up some kwh. You sleep at a hotel, your car charges overnight. You go to work, you plug it in in the car park. Etc. There's a massive growth in the availability of chargers like that. It's only when you are going to drive longer distances that a fast charger is nice and worth the premium price you'll likely pay for using one. Most highways have those. Some areas are still a bit under served.
Basically fuel pumps require electricity to function. So any fuel station is a potentially charging point. And when double digit percentages of cars are electric, most of the surviving ones will be offering chargers. Many of course won't make it. Range anxiety is going to be a thing if you own an ICE vehicle pretty soon. Is there going to be a petrol station where I'm going? Is it still in business? Is it getting supplied? Just mocking ICE car owners here of course. Unlike an EV, you are really screwed if you go out of range of a petrol station. An EV can just plugin to whatever. Even another EV if that's needed. Mobile chargers are already a thing.
The practical reality of course is that the overall number of chargers is already much higher than the number of petrol stations. And many EV owners rarely use a fast charger. For most people, fast charging is a thing they do a few times a year. Mostly they just plug in and forget about it.
My parents have been driving an EV for the last half year. Fast charging is a thing my father stressed out about. I asked him the other day if he had used a fast charger yet. Answer: no. The need for that simply hasn't come up yet. The car has enough range for what they do. They've done destination charging a few times. But not fast charging. Mostly they charge at home and it's all they need. They are planning a trip to France soon (1200km drive). So, they will have to plan some charging stops. Likely that will be a mix of hotels with chargers and maybe a few tactical fast charging stops. But that will be the first time.
The details prop up only when you delve into it or start experiencing issues.
There is a relevant quote from Einstein here : "Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler."
How did we manage to fuck up something as basic as delivering power? We've been doing this for like, dunno, 150 years? I understand charging requires payment - why not a simple credit card terminal? Or gosh - a clerk that would accept cash, like what every single gas station in existence has been doing for over a century?
In places where people stay for multiple hours, there's a huge argument to install about 25-50 level 2 chargers and make them a free perk instead of one big fast charger. Less complexity, less potential for being blocked or vandalized, etc.
That said, even if we restrict our discussion to just level 2 (sometimes called destination chargers, for a reason), the main cost of installation is to run new lines to the parking lot or wherever they are located. The main cost is not the EVSE. Tesla sells one for $500 for example, and no-name brands sell it for half as much. If a property is already upgrading their infrastructure to run multiple 50A NEMA outlets, the incremental cost of equipping them with an EVSE is tiny.
(I'd even include Level 1 charging at home, but since that's a really short conversation, it rightly doesn't get talked about much.)
It comforts me that even serious publications still get these units wrong.
Take your time, enjoy it. There's no rush.
The simplest solution would be a kWh meter on the outlet, but someone has to read it.
Next would be a bluetooth, NFC, or optical interface that lets you send kWh credits from your phone without the charger itself needing a cell modem, but then the problem is how to store value on a phone without double spending or losing the money. That seems really hard, though a campground could probably get by with a 95% solution that errs on the side of refunding to the customer.
Not everything needs to be an app. Especially in a world where almost nobody can build an app that actually functions.
Just put in your card at the machine FFS. Treat it just like a gas pump. this is not technically difficult, but I feel like everybody is making it out to be some difficult problem. Gas and electricity refill a vehicle in exactly the same way. You put in X amount of energy, go X amount of miles. Electricity just takes longer to charge, but otherwise what is so different?
And somehow every gas station managed to authorize your credit card even in the most remote of bumfuck places. Even where all there is is a land line, they can still dial out to authorize. Again, solved problem.
If you want to have an account and an app, fine. Don't force everybody else to have it.
The meter needs to be read by a campground attendant after every stay, to determine who used the electricity. This is straightforward but labor intensive.
Adding a card reader and data connectivity to a campsite would greatly increase capital and ongoing maintenance costs. The same applies to condo/apartment parking spaces.
Apps are absolutely not needed
The entire thing can be trivially built by off-the-shelf components and it won't 'hard' to scale at any rate. For example a triac 600V/40A is less than $5 - that's the power control (need 3 for 3-phase).
There are a lot of issues with charging in the US, but that's more a matter of immaturity than anything else. We need far more L3 DC fast chargers, and we need the folks building the charging stations to be more tightly integrated with car mfg's so they can actively test fast charging before new cars hit the market to work out bugs BEFORE the first time someone wants to charge a new model.
If you're going to downvote, at least have the decency to respond. I assume folks that don't like the response don't own an electric vehicle. If you've ever taken a road trip in one, you'd immediately know how ridiculous it is to advocate for deploying NEMA 14-50 outlets across the US as a solution to charging... it would be an absolute waste of US taxpayer dollars for endless reasons, not the least of which the charging speeds are so slow as to be borderline useless unless it's a destination you were already planning on spending an overnight trip at. At which point you'd be better served by an L2 charger which have none of the communication issues that sometimes exist with DC fast charging.
I doubt the campground would complain about a customer like this. And, tbh, RV energy usage will vary widely too. They don't really charge differently for a large RV with a big A/C on >90F days vs a smaller one there during early spring.
I'm not following, you're saying RV parks would have no issues with EVs swinging by every day, using $15 of electricity, and not ever paying a dime? I'm not sure about your area, but around here campgrounds aren't exactly printing money... they would very much not be cool with someone stealing their power.
If you're suggesting someone paying $50 for a parking spot and then plugging in - sure the RV park isn't going to care at all. The author of the article appears to have just taken the power without paying a dime though...
Doing so is trespassing and theft. I didn't see where he said that he did that, just that the power wasn't metered.
TBH, even with that, I've seen RV parks that would refuse a paying EV customer for various reasons.
And if you're paying $50 for the spot, you're massively overpaying for your charging.
I didn't see where it said he was trespassing.
https://www.volts.wtf/p/the-digital-circuit-breaker-and-why#...
The Tesla plug and charger is a way better system, and is currently being adopted by almost all EV in north america.
Great idea, but the devil is in the details, and many electrical rules (like aviation ones) are written in blood.