So basically they're just idiots. Yes, deliberate sabotage does have a way of messing things up, no matter how much money something is worth / has been spent. If you stab a billionaire they bleed, just like the common folk!
So basically they're just idiots. Yes, deliberate sabotage does have a way of messing things up, no matter how much money something is worth / has been spent. If you stab a billionaire they bleed, just like the common folk!
When asked what their act of protest was against, they said "cars in general." They're very anti-car and, although they acknowledge that self-driving cars will be much safer in the long term and could transform a world full of wasteful single-car ownership, they are adamant that cars shouldn't exist.
Yes, they're in their 20s and enjoy riding their bikes in San Francisco.
Public transport is the solution but I see that as less likely than mass self driving cars in US cities (how depressing)
Because they’re asking for more access to public transit, reconsidering the US car culture, and improving quality of life in the city in general? Less cars means less pollution, less noise, less traffic, better health, more livable districts… How is that idiotic?
But idiots just need something to be against.
https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/public-transportation#:~:....
So driverless busses would probably be a better outcome than driverless taxis. Does a driverless electric bus fall under "any bus"? This group targets individual transport systems like robotaxis, and similar developments in the field of public transit would probably not be targeted by this group as such.
They also point out that these automated cars, if they end up actually working right, make zero effort to be handicap accessible, unlike existing and currently working public transit (which also happens to be delayed and hampered by these same semi functional, automated cars)
If you can automate a car, you can automate a handicap accessible van. Just because they haven't yet doesn't mean they wouldn't.
Public transit is great, but it means you have to go to a specific stop and wait there, and then go from wherever you get dropped off to your final destination, which is probably not the bus stop / train station. That's not very handicap-accessible, since it often means navigating escalators / elevators that end up being broken half the time.
These issues with public transit are correctable. Stops could be added in between, infrastructure made more accessible… Handicap accessibility is a mandate for public transit. For a private car fleet, it’s an afterthought and token gesture.
Also, the public transit network is already there and works. Why not invest in that instead while also encouraging active Mobility by walking or cycling instead of more cars?
I still fail to see how what they’re demanding is idiotic. You might not agree with it, or it might make you uncomfortable about your transportation choices, but it’s the opposite of idiotic.
The public transit network is "there" in some places, and kind of works. If you happen to live near a stop and your schedule allows you enough time to wait for a bus / train to arrive, then sure. If you don't live in one of those places then you're SOL. Good luck waiting for the city to add a new train line. It took NYC over 100 years to build the second avenue line...
Meanwhile the infrastructure for cars is there, and actually does work and goes from point-to-point from almost every single residence / place of business in the entire country.
Cost and inefficiency? The city should invest in and expand access to efficient public transit, not spend money on expensive multi-ton vehicles that can move one fare at a time. The solution to "some people live far from bus stops" should first be "local government adds more bus stops", not "local government spends billions on small cars."
Yep that’s another part of the problem. Easy answer is for official to through their hands up and make way for more individual cars rather than addressing the root problem and do the hard work of making public transit attractive.
I’m in Switzerland at the moment for example, a large chunk of people don’t own cars, you can go by train and bus everywhere (literally, I can go across the country on one ticket, go to ski by train, or to the top of mountains by train and mountain trains), and the bus isn’t the social stigma it is in the US.
There is no reason why the Us can’t get their act together and do the same thing other than lack of will to do so. Instead, you have multilevel 12 lanes freeway monstrosities and insane traffic.
Solutions to transportation in the US need to factor in the density and account for the low-density areas as well. Politically, those low-density regions are, IME, the ones most likely to fight against changes that would move towards mass-transit because they feel like they are being ignored.
Beyond that, SDVs and Mass-transit aren't at opposition. Busses can and should be SDVs as well. As mentioned by another poster, small handicap-accessible SDVs that do point-to-point transport are _better_ than mass-transit. If vehicular mass is a concern, with ubiquitous SDV integration into an urban transit system you can and should design purpose-built transporters with lower mass. With central EV charging and remote power generation you are already moving the pollution point to a smaller number of locations that are easier to optimize and monitor.
Really, these people seem to be saying "We don't like this, so you shouldn't be allowed to do it" and then they use flimsy excuses as justification. That makes them just like all the other people that want to force their world-view on me. Maybe instead of doing that they could spend all of that energy on moving the needle on the core issues that are possible in the short term and will make a difference, like moving to green renewables for power generation.
Sorry if this seems overly cranky, but it's frustrating to see people that think interfering with SDV operation is a 'good thing' in any way, shape, or form.
That doesn't seem forthcoming, though.
There's also no reason you can't have both. Private companies testing driverless cars are not preventing the city from building other public transit.
These are not serious people. Sure, when they’re contacted by a reporter they can say some nice-sounding things like “we want better public transit“, but they aren’t actually doing anything that could reasonably be expected to result in that happening. All they’re doing is juvenile petty vandalism.
They’re getting a discussion around these issues started at the very least, like in this thread. Aside from their methods and whether a particular individual agrees with them or not, it doesn’t do nothing at all. Awareness and discussion is a necessary step.
The state can easily legislate that fleets of self-driving cars needs to have x% of their cars be wheelchair-accessible, just as it has legislated that the newly built buildings (public or private) need to be wheelchair accessible.
I have no idea where the nearest bus stop to my house is but I’m guessing it is over a half mile away. According to my Apple Watch it is supposed to be 110 degrees outside today. Does that help clarify why people might want door to door service if they were getting a ride whether public transportation or taxi?
Yep, and so the city will be flooded with cars.
AFAIK, Waymos thought of wheelchair users:
https://support.google.com/waymo/answer/10656347?hl=en
See also:
https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/9/23298488/waymo-accessible-...
(They mention that the WAV trips in SF had been manual, it's unclear to me if that was the case also in Phoenix)
Anyhow, while I think that "zero effort" is hyperbole, the risk that they are not going to invest enough is a very real risk...
And also, if the argument is that 100% of their fleet should be (wheelchair?) accessible, that's a valid concern, since it seems that all players are currently failing at it
No, they'd actually be substantially worse. Personal cars are poorly utilized, but they at least spend all of their time carrying at least one person (the driver), and stay off the roads when they aren't in use. A taxi will, necessarily, spend less than 100% of its time carrying a passenger; if it's being used primarily by commuters, it's likely to spend at least 50% of its time with no passengers at all (because it's deadheading back into a city to take workers home, or vice versa).
Having everyone drive cars everywhere isn't sustainable, but making those cars into taxis isn't the solution either.
One option is to mix public transport with driverless taxis - consolidate public transportation into fewer, bigger routes (knocking down costs), then use driverless taxis for short trips to the station. A little inconvenient to add 1-2 extra transfers to your trip, though.
There's also the opportunity to automate carpooling, but that's not quite the same - it's just moving a little further on the flexibility <-> efficiency scale of transportation (where individual vehicles are furthest left and trains are furthest right). Even if you're just sharing a taxi with 2-3 other commuters, you're still sacrificing the convenience of leaving at the time of your choice and having privacy during the trip - though of course for a big price discount.
I am curious how much cheaper the robotaxis will actually be for the user (right now they’re all at a loss)
Assuming that a cab can make the same income in the dead of the night as it does during peak periods is a rather bold assumption.
How much revenue a cab, whether human-operated or autonomous, generates at 1am vs 1pm is entirely irrelevant.
And you're assuming that all cabs are operated 24 hours a day, in three shifts. They are not.
It's a gigantic waste of space and energy.
In this regard, it is in no way comparable to trains, buses etc.
> It's a gigantic waste of space and energy.
So were horses and buggies before car was invented. Interesting, waste of neither space nor energy was not raised as an issue back then.
> Just because all roads lead to Rome doesn’t mean you can get in — at least not on wheels. During Julius Caesar’s reign, daytime access to the Eternal City was restricted, with travelers required to hitch their carriages outside the city gates.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ancient-rome-forbade-dow...
- The time savings of direct, immediate, door-to-door transportation
- Dedicated storage capacity
- Configuration flexibility, e.g. children’s car seats, foldable seats, luggage racks
- Style and comfort options
- Privacy
…and direct their dollars accordingly.
Cars have utility but also disutility - a lot of the latter is not priced in.
I think people would hate on cars less if there was a fair focus on other infrastructure as well. We could have the best of both worlds.
I love the freedom to drive but I would rather we all have freedom of movement with mass transit and cleaner, quieter cities.
Gasoline taxes pay for a lot of road infrastructure; except for people buying gasoline for their lawn mowers and leaf blowers (not applicable in California), the taxes are being paid by folks using the infrastructure.
If no one in the household drives, they likely use taxis and delivery services, both of which depend upon road infrastructure.
I've never heard of a government bus service which paid for the general (not segregated) road infrastructure they use; if some do, I'd love to be corrected.
And bicyclists also use general road infrastructure.
Roads are broadly used by the people. Why shouldn't the people broadly pay for it?
> I think people would hate on cars less if there was a fair focus on other infrastructure as well. We could have the best of both worlds.
It's fine that we all pay for it, it would just be nice if that's not all we paid for. It would also be nice to slide the balance toward pedestrian focus once you get into CBDs and once you get to residential areas. You still need roads, absolutely, but we should do better at matching the roads to their spaces.
> And bicyclists also use general road infrastructure
This is more of an aside to be honest, but cyclists don't want to be on the road as much as drivers don't want them to be. Added bike lanes are a compromise, no one wants them, they get people mad, they get people killed. Separated bikelines is one of those "other infrastructure" pieces, which can be built next to mass transit lines for cost efficiency, everyone would prefer that.
1km of cars is 1/9 the total length of the M10. Not following the argument here.
Driverless cars still take space both to move and to stand still.
You'll just be stuck in traffic autonomously instead of on a train moving more people more effectively.
Well, it sounds strangely like a "15-minute city" agenda, where you have less pollution, less noise, less traffic, and are stuck living in your block :D
“One of these 15 million dollar jet engines, just being disabled by a common traffic cone”
I can think of a lot of really expensive equipment that can be destroyed or disabled by a common traffic cone.
So a gas turbine most likely won't even notice a cone.
Besides in a modern high-bypass turbofan about 80% of it would just get shredded by the fan and fly around the delicate parts, which aren't that much delicate.