Windows popup to change competing browser search engine to Bing anticompetitive? | Hacker News Reader

Windows popup to change competing browser search engine to Bing anticompetitive?

76 pointsaijoe38 comments

I had no browsers open. I was minding my own business. Windows 11 gave me an unsolicited toaster popup, with the default action being to change Chrome's default search engine to Bing.

This is an atrocious dark pattern and a huge overreach for an operating system, whose job it should be to stay out of my way and run what I tell it to.

But more than that, this strikes me as directly anti-competitive behavior. I would appreciate views on this by people having more educated opinions on this than myself.

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I agree with you. If you have some time, consider writing a comment to your national or state/provincial consumer protection regulator.

In the US, you can file an antitrust complaint with the FTC here: https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/report-antitrust-violation

...and find your state regulator here: https://www.usa.gov/state-consumer

I have honestly given up on Windows. It has extremely strong fundamentals, but they seem determined to mine their users for money instead of investing in a platform. I find what's happening in Apple world to be dire, but at least they have been good stewards of the user. Desktop Linux has its own serious problems as well (there's a reason its at 3%~ market penetration).

I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I think Apple for now, keep my usage of Apple services to a reasonable minimum, and keep an eye on what's going on in the Linux world.

As a Linux user, both on the desktop and on my home servers, what "serious problems" does the Linux desktop have? I know it isn't perfect, are you referring to the lack software support by the likes Adobe and MS Office?

My Linux install does dumb shit (technical term) all the time, but I find it's a small price to pay for software that doesn't hate me.

Case in point: I just upgraded to the newish Xubuntu 23.04 the other day, and now my default sound output device changes (to the wrong one) every time I come out of sleep mode.

A small price to pay.

Kubuntu 23.04 kernel 6.4.11 here - works fine. The issue you describe may be XFCE specific.

"Works for me" is the anthem of all linux desktop users.

That maybe specific to that distribution and not Linux as a whole.

Driver support. For example on Ubuntu I can’t use touch gestures on my touch screen and can’t assign all keyboard keys. Ok, not everyone uses a Japanese laptop with a European windows, but that works pretty well…

Used a Linux machine for a while when my Mac was being repaired. It's not enough for professional use, unless you're a programmer or sysadmin.

- I couldn't find a good enough e-mail client, so did what every Linux user I know do and used webmail. That means you lose speed and features.

- Dual screen support for different DPI is non-existent in most distros, and has to be hacked with xrandr scripts to work in other distros.

- Audio or Bluetooth not working

- Very messy to install software. The native "App Store" wouldn't work or connect, so had to resort to shell commands.

- Lack of suitable productivity software (which you mentioned).

As long as nobody wants to offer a complete Linux solution with hardware, operating system and productivity software, then it will continue to be like this. That's the problem with OSS, everybody wants to blame each other and nobody wants to take responsibility and deliver a complete experience to users.

People like to compare random laptops running linux against macbooks running osx or thinkpads running windows, but that isn't really fair as linux is being expected to correctly support more hardware than the commercial options.

Compare a thinkpad running windows to the same computer running linux. I have been getting an experience superior to windows on an old x220 for the better part of a decade now. Absolutely everything works perfectly out of the box.

Lack of proper ssh graphical support, wrong file path notation, constant inexcusable security fuck-ups, and a user-hostile philosophy makes windows unsuitable for serious work. It isn't capable of being left alone for more than a few days without restarting the computer it's on. What a bad joke in 2023. At my workplace people innevitably start using a vm or try to patch things over with putty, but eventually most excorcise microsoft from their work laptops and join the real world.

The reason why I used a Linux machine while my Mac was being repaired is because I would never even consider Windows. I needed to get important work done, uninterrupted. With very minimal time to tinker with the system. Linux was a total disappointment, but at least I could get through the time while the Mac was being repaired. If something like this happens again, I'll just try to Hackintosh any machine, because you might have to tinker and hack and pull your hair as much as with Linux, but in the end you can get a decent system for non-dev work.

There’s too many damn distros out there and it takes a bit to find exactly what to use.

I am really annoyed that Ubuntu has become synonymous with Linux because it’s one of the worst distros to act as a desktop.

Also, curse NVIDIA for effectively keeping X alive.

For some of your points, multi DPI needs Wayland. Wayland isn’t everywhere because of NVIDIA.

Audio not working is a really odd one. Not sure what the cause of that is.

Flatpak works with the gnome software store. So that has reduced the entry barrier.

At this point I recommend EndeavourOS if you want a more traditional Linux experience and fedora silverblue if you want it to “just work, but that’s limited to Intel and AMD GPUs.

Your 3rd and 4th point makes me wonder about your hardware as well as the distro and desktop environment you use to have that kind of experience. My recipe for trouble-less Linux installation is to use hardware that has well-known compatibility with Linux (Thinkpad for me), as well as a popular distro and desktop environment (Manjaro+KDE or more recently EndeavourOS+Gnome for me).

Email client:

Thunderbird

What more do you need? Mutt is good for terminal usage too.

Or are you lamenting stuff like integrated calendar and what not?

>- Very messy to install software. The native "App Store" wouldn't work or connect, so had to resort to shell commands.

Software install is A) fundamentally messy if you refuse to read what is being installed, B) nothing to complain about given that the level of friction a developer has to go through for say, bloody Mac software releases is insane. For linux, a tarball download, path update, and linker path update is generally sufficient.

>-- Lack of suitable productivity software (which you mentioned).

I have immense difficulty taking this at face value.

>That's the problem with OSS, everybody wants to blame each other and nobody wants to take responsibility and deliver a complete experience to users.

Ya know what, maybe I've gone to the dark side in that the problem there is in the expectation of the user.

Most tools arise out of "it solves a problem for me" and we share. Maybe some distro builder has the passion to integrate things... Good on them.

You will never have a great experience using a tool you refuse to become proficient in, and computers are no different in that. The most toxic thing that happened to our industry os we suddenly seem to have drawn a line between Users and developers when in reality, there is only users.

When switching from Windows to OS X eons ago, there were no hurdles or no need to "become proficient". No diving into config files or terminal to make things work. Polished OS and software, that you could use uninterrupted from start to finish when doing professional work, without being a programmer.

I can use MacOS without knowing what a path update or a linker path is, and it can do every and any advanced thing a computer is capable of without me having to learn that. The developer having to go through hell to release software for MacOS is one person who will suffer for the benefit of thousands, instead of thousands suffering for the benefit of nobody.

Linux should come with a big sticker "Do not use if you're not a developer", because that's basically the answer to any complaint about the OS. Of course nobody is responsible, because it's OSS and just floating out there, everybody is a volounteer. But where are the people to say "Hey, let's integrate and make a great experience and test with real life users and real life work flows, and then sell it"?

I would have gladly pay for a Linux solution like that if it existed. Why is MacOS the only option for non-developers? People who make some PDFs, read and write e-mails, make invoices and graphics, make presentations and use advanced calendars. I want to do that natively on a machine and have everything integrated, like Mac does with Spotlight and such. Linux people tell me I should use web services for all that, but then there's no integration.

Since it's OSS, nobody has a right to complain, and that's fine. I just think OSS programmers could be less shy. Instead of releasing something half-assed for other devs to use, why not go the extra mile and deliver something that's complete and usable for non-devs and then charge for it? We'd gladly pay!

Hardware "issues" depends on the hardware being supported for that distribution, desktop environment and more.

My Realtek Ethernet doesn't work on Fedora 38, but it did work out of the box with Pop!_OS.

Mozilla Thunderbird is a good email client.

I tried a few different distros before settling with Ubuntu. Different things would work or not work in different distros on the laptop I had. I had read good things about PopOS, but it would not install. I liked ElementaryOS and found the UI more beautiful than MacOS, but something important didn't function (I've forgotten what it was). Congrats to the developers and designers of Linux desktop environments (ElementaryOS, KDE and Gnome) for having the best looking GUIs without losing clarity and usability. They are superior to anything from Apple, Microsoft or Google. Unfortunately it seems that "the rest of Linux" hates GUIs and GUI-workflows.

Yes, it's obnoxious. And so are the nonstop popups telling you to use Chrome that Google shows you if you're using Edge on Maps, YouTube, Gmail, Search etc.

Both of these companies should be slapped hard for doing this.

"fun" side effect of that: even if you wanted, you can't actually get rid of the nag screens: even if you did everything e.g. Microsoft wanted from you, then Google will keep nagging you to revert the settings back to the opposite - and vice versa.

Users are basically in the middle of a conflict between MS and Google, with no options to get out of it (except stop using their products).

It is doing what it was programmed to do:

https://youtu.be/Ag1AKIl_2GM?t=57

Sadly, this kind of user-hostile behavior is increasingly common and a form of enshitification (see https://doctorow.medium.com/tiktoks-enshittification-bb3f5df...) of the operating system.

is it a dark pattern if it clearly asks you to do something, and doesn't lie or deceive you about what it's going to do if you accept or decline?

(no, it isn't a dark pattern if it isn't lying or tricking you into making a decision you would not make otherwise. this particular behavior isn't defensible behavior, and it isn't an example of a dark pattern, either.)

is this how languages evolve so fast? people using words and terms without understanding them in full view of people who don't know the term, who then learn the incorrect definition?

Or maybe people decide to expand their own definition of a word, which everyone is allowed to do, and we eventually come to a consensus? Try to be a little less cynical.

I'm cynical because I've seen SO MANY terms quickly change, only to be told by people who are younger than my career that my use of a term is incorrect.

I'm cynical because I've been forced to be.

"copypasta" used to mean that a programs source code was copied from many places and hastily wired up so it all works without any cleanup or untangling of unnecessary bits of code, like casts from uint16 to uint32 so that one copied method could be used, then a cast back to uint16 so another copied method could be used, then a cast to uint32 again so that the ultimate result could be used.

could those types have been changed in the methods so that the casts weren't needed? you bet. but it is a hastily assembled Frankenstein's monster that lives and breathes but that gives you nightmares when you look at the source code again in 1 weeks time.

today, "copypasta" is often used to mean "I copied a single method from another project, used it, and now my program is legit copypasta, lol."

I'm just tired of people using words and technical terms without understanding them. I know that it's a reality of spoken languages, but I don't have to like it.

It’s maybe a stretch to call 4chan speak like “copypasta” a technical term.

technical term or not, it has meaning.

an easier to understand example, then: "literally" - "in effect; in substance; very nearly; virtually: 'I literally died when she walked out on stage in that costume.'"

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/literally

"literally" now literally means "figuratively" because of the phenomenon I'm talking about.

> told by people who are younger than my career that my use of a term is incorrect

Being old doesn't make you wise, or right.

It's nonsense to demand that meaning of words will never change, because change over time is just how language works.

That's how we got from Chaucer, to Shakespeare, to modern English. The changes do happen fast enough to be noticeable in a single lifetime.

As you grow older, it's important to track these changes. You don't have to agree with them or like them. But sometimes you might have to accept the new meanings anyway.

> Being old doesn't make you wise, or right.

are you serious?

being old doesn't inherently make you know things, no, and that is absolutely not what I was saying.

I was around when the term was coined and I used it in conversation with others. After that the people who argue with me today tell me that my use of the term then was wrong were born.

Wikipedia is wrong about the origins of this term; I was using it in 1998 in the #slashdot IRC channel, and that's where I was introduced to the term.

why in the hell do you think I was saying that age alone grants knowledge? that is a leap greater than I've seen in a long time.

No one is saying your definition is incorrect. You are saying another group's definition is incorrect.

You do realize that there is a plethora of words in the English language which have multiple distinct meanings?

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/english-w...

No one forced you to be bitter about evolving language. We live in a hyperconnected era where language is evolving faster than ever, so you'll need to calibrate if you don't want to spend every minute seething.

Even in your framing (which I don't accept) it is a dark pattern because it constructs a bias of user behaviour that, statistically, will push users towards something that is both good for the company and not reflective of the user's goals. This IS a trick, because it relies on the user not knowing those incentives to be effective.

It is a dark pattern to ask the user to switch defaults to a product randomly presenting an action button which tricks the user into clicking something they have no desire to change.

It's desktop spam. Like receiving an email trying to get you to click a link and install malware.

It's a dark pattern to constantly solicit the user the same offer with no option to turn it off. Ie my windows machine constantly suggesting I switch to windows 11, using vaguer language than normal so that I may accidentally select yes, and having no opt out option so I may eventually concide out of exhaustion rather than real consent

it's an anti-pattern. It isn't a dark pattern.

dark patterns lie to you, attempt to deceive you. anti-patterns are just annoying without lying.

you guys want to attack Microsoft so bad you've forgotten what terms mean.

Welcome to the year 2000.

> Windows 11 gave me an unsolicited toaster popup, with the default action being to change Chrome's default search engine to Bing

Not doubting you, but as a W11 home user for a while- I haven't seen this myself.

> This is an atrocious dark pattern and a huge overreach for an operating system

It's not a dark pattern. It's definitely an annoying thing - how is this different from Apple reminding you to set-up Apple Pay?

Calling it a dark pattern may be a stretch. But does the nag to set up Apple Pay directly change preferences to their product over a competitor's? Or is it added as an option?

Because it’s something you probably don’t want to do and they’re making it easy to do by accident

> how is this different from Apple reminding you to set-up Apple Pay?

Thats an absolute dark pattern too.

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