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Comment by gambiting | Hacker News Reader

The worst thing about(for me) it is that I literally cannot find anyone, even in tech circles, who cares about this. The general apathy towards it is shocking. Even people who go on about how google/facebook are evil and how you need to take steps to protect your data from them, do not care about these proposed changes, as if they are going to take place on the moon not here. Even when I bring up the fact that your internet history is already saved by all ISPs for a year and 17 different government departments(including department of agriculture!) can inspect it warrant free, no one seems to really care, it's a collective "meh" nothing more. So maybe it's no wonder that this isn't really making much noise in the news. There are still some public privacy advocates in the UK but it feels so.....powerless.

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I think it is not apathy, but learned helplessness. People tried to change things and they got nothing. I care about this a lot, but I don't know what to do. The current UK government is openly corrupt, people know it, people want them out, but the best we could do is to get rid of Boris. And that barely moved the needle. We have the climate change crisis and the eco-protests achieved pretty much nothing.

Yeah this is where I'm at. I feel powerless and unable to actually make change. I care deeply, I'm just hopeful that Signal, WhatsApp and Apple stick to their principals and don't break encryption. Using Android I could hopefully sideload Signal anyway?

The worst part of it is that I'm not even convinced the Tories are going to lose the next election. People have such short memories or choose to forget the scandals come election time.

> The worst part of it is that I'm not even convinced the Tories are going to lose the next election.

Dude - time to start your journey, out of Plato’s Cave! The lefty/righty paradigm, is old and dusty. Just one axis of thought, out of three.

It was David Blunkett, who wanted us all to show our: “papers, please!” - so don’t think for one moment, that the desire to renew, and transplant, a Stasi esque surveillance borg, stops at the Conservative corridors of power.

We are boiling the frog!

Yes, most people don't care enough to fight back. So it's down to the few who do care enough to do it - and keep on doing it.

Iggy Pop ('Main Street Eyes'):

  Boy, I feel so outgunned today
  But I'll get up and fight back, anyway

There are many things I care about but I don’t dare tell people what they are. Society is rapidly changing and I don’t want to be caught on the wrong side of it - I still have to survive. I can’t afford to be boycotted or have my accounts frozen. Since society is changing, even if I go along with what is ok today there is no guarantee that such views will be ok tomorrow. So I’ve decided to live life as a non-combatant, I stay out of politics and simply do what I can to mitigate the damage to myself and those that I care about. We simply don’t live in an era that tolerates political dissent and throwing myself against the gears isn’t going to change anything.

Keep a diary or log. I have, since COVID gave the tyrants an excuse.

It's a fantastic way to see what gets memory-holed and where the gas-lighting efforts are spent.

Maybe one of us ends up as required reading for whatever civilization emerges from the ashes.

I'll let Peter Hitchens keep a chronicle. I'm collecting and studying enlightenment era literature to better understand what is being destroyed and what will need to be put back. I don't think the modern era is unique, I do think we're in the twilight of the enlightenment which was an unusually good time for my subset of humanity. Like Chertersons fense, we've forgotten how we got here and we're removing freedoms without understanding the consequences. My main goal is to avoid involvement in any great power conflict. I think I'm an unusual 'prepper' in that my long held prediction of 'collapse' was specifically the cost of living criss we are now experiencing. I prepared for it by investing in software that is inflation resistant. I targeted the low-cost substitutable good market so for me bad times are good.

I recently met a boomer and I had the shills, hearing him in Paris in 1968 mounting barricades, feeling that he had an impact on the course of the entire political world, feeling that he was setting the direction while mounting theater plays and opening up girl’s dormitories (reference: What triggered Paris’ May 1968 is the girls being locked up at night in their universities).

Compared to today. Even the major majority of the population can’t do a thing about the force propaganda, and the ones who protest see a million AI-generated flame pieces in newspapers.

"I recently met a boomer and I had the shills, hearing him in Paris in 1968 mounting barricades, feeling that he had an impact on the course of the entire political world,"

I've never felt more politically empowered than during that time, it's been a steady slide downwards since. I now feel helpless and neutered. I just wish that time would return.

I struggle with comments like these. It's too vague to be useful to discuss, yet vagueness is exactly the intention. It's an extreme form of paranoia, yet relatable in its delusions of grandeur.

I'll continue to be political though. My survival and those I care about depend on it, as we are not the status quo. Hopefully you understand.

Lol. Political dissent wasn't tolerated in the 1900s (wanna strike? You'll probably get shot), in the 1910s (why are you not in a trench dying for your country?), in the 1920s (striking again? Will get shot again), in the 1930s (reading the news? That's a Jewish thing, isn't it?), in the 1940s (why are you not in a trench dying for your country?), in the 1950s (reading the news? That's a communist thing, isn't it?), in the 1960s (long hair? That's a communist thing, isn't it?), in the 1970s (studying? That's a communist thing, isn't it?), in the 1980s (worrying about nuclear Holocaust? That's a communist thing, isn't it?), in the 1990s (bitching about globalization? Here's some anti-riot gear to the face), in the 2000s (why are you not in Afghanistan dying for your country?), in the 2010s (got a video of brown people getting murdered? Your life is over)...

Political dissent was never tolerated. Some generations just claimed their right to it a bit harder than others, and even then it was always a minority doing it - most people (including me, more often than not) will just trade political cowardice for a quiet life. That's all there is. Just don't pretend that it's the result of some fine analysis - it's just plain cowardice.

You're attacking a strawman. I think it's clear that it's the dose that makes the poison. Hate speech laws and debanking are a recent phenomena and add a degree of severity to the punishment that the governments can mete out that has not existed in modern times. Additionally the internationalization of policing means you can no longer easily escape to another country. You can't go hang out in Canada or Switzerland anymore. And there was a culture of high tolerance, I remember it, 'I don't agree with what you say but I will defend to the death for your right to say it,' that has all but disappeared.

I saw this hit Mastodon yesterday. It was retooted[0] by someone from a retrocomputing instance that I follow.

Hacker News is incredibly fickle with what gets traction here; some days you'll have the site chock full of "US government trying to ban E2E" stories and other days they'll be sleeping on the exact same thing. I have a suspicion that HN is split into two audiences:

- Hobbyists, that use the website at random times of the day and get very worried about legal compliance and governance changes

- Businesspeople, that use the website when they're off work and don't care about any of that because they know they can just lobby away the things that hurt them specifically

Depending on which group is using the site at the time, HN's systemic biases change dramatically.

[0] Not the official name anymore but I'm the kind of person who specifically mods the CSS on their instance to bring back "Toot"

Don't forget timezones: there's distinct "US" and "UK" phases to this site.

...and Eu phases, too (similar to UK phase, but sadly bollocksed by language[s]).

> Not the official name anymore but I'm the kind of person who specifically mods the CSS on their instance to bring back "Toot"

It's clearly the best name, and (if I wasn't keeping away from all similar products for my own sanity) I would be sad that they changed away from it.

There are plenty who care (and by no means are all of them in tech).

In the UK, you could consider joining Liberty [0] who have had some significant wins. Here's an example [1] where EFF, Liberty and others were (and still are) defending privacy.

[0] https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/issue/a-surveillance-n...

[1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/02/civil-society-organiza...

I find when you talk about digital privacy here you get one of two responses, "why do you care?" or "why does it matter if you have nothing to hide?". Perhaps the only exception to this is if it's related Google or Facebook tracking cookies, or perhaps if it's related to something someone shared publicly on Facebook and it turned out to in fact be public. "How dare Facebook sell information [I willing provided them with] to other companies for profit!".

Apart from niche online communities no one gives a damn about privacy here. These stories don't get reported on by the BBC or any mainstream media outlet in the UK. The only people who care are those not from the UK (like people on HN) or the odd privacy centric community / organisation within the UK.

None of our major political parties give a damn about privacy, and both labour and tories dislike privacy for different reasons. It really is hopeless. It's nice to vent about it on here with people who care every once in a while though.

It’s cultural. I’m dual national US/UK - there’s less of a focus on individual rights generally. Rocking the boat is frowned upon in a lot of circles. Drives me nuts.

Because activism is exhausting, and we have been withered down and exhausted. And they know.. thats how they get you.. a thousand bee stings and apathetic stares, till you fall, to your knees, to yo your elbows, the head is just resting.. you close your eyes and freedom is gone forever. There is a plan to this relentless onslaught..

Absolutely fucking true!

I remember the pushback in the 90s against the Clipper chip. PGP was one of the responses to the NSA's overreach. I think it's hard to find people who cares about this today because there appears to be both a general lack of historical literacy combined with the fact that a lot of people are just grinding to stay alive right now.

"The government knows what a pivotal role cryptography is destined to play in the power relationship with its people. In April 1993, the Clinton administration unveiled a bold new encryption policy initiative, which had been under development at the National Security Agency (NSA) since the start of the Bush administration. The centerpiece of this initiative was a government-built encryption device, called the Clipper chip, containing a new classified NSA encryption algorithm. The government tried to encourage private industry to design it into all their secure communication products, such as secure phones, secure faxes, and so on. AT&T put Clipper into its secure voice products. The catch: At the time of manufacture, each Clipper chip is loaded with its own unique key, and the government gets to keep a copy, placed in escrow. Not to worry, though–the government promises that they will use these keys to read your traffic only "when duly authorized by law." Of course, to make Clipper completely effective, the next logical step would be to outlaw other forms of cryptography." -Phil Zimmerman, Why I Wrote PGP [0]

[0] https://www.philzimmermann.com/EN/essays/index.html

It's not like people don't care. People I know deeply care about this, but there is nothing you can do about it.

Government has even banned the right to protest. Given the cost of living crisis and economy going down the pan, nobody wants to risk their job and roof over their heads to protest something that is going to happen anyway.

Everyone I know will be voting against Conservative party and that is currently the only way to stop them.

Are the Labour party even against this though?

Not particularly. The Blair-era government was also pretty pro-surveillance.

Indeed. The opposite of Conservative is not Labour.

It's ever so slightly more likely to bow to public pressure, because they are ever so slightly less dependent on moneyed elites funding them (the bulk of their financial backing comes from trade unions). At this point, every little counts.

> It's not like people don't care. People I know deeply care about this, but there is nothing you can do about it.

If Brexit hadn't happened, I would've tried to keep campaigning against the Investigatory Powers Act (that lets the Welsh Ambulance Service see which domains you've visited without a warrant).

I figured Brexit would make it impossible to undo; I think in retrospect I was right for the wrong reasons — I thought the rhetoric of Brexit would only be satisfied by also taking the UK out of all international human rights courts and treaties, rather than it would require 150% of all available political focus from basically everyone in the country.

I care. Deeply. I don't have time to do much and also realize how this is getting ignored. I usually don't have the patience to make the case properly in conversations with brilliant people that don't get it.

This said I believe it needs to start with education. However there's not enough focused effort.

Powerful AI coupled with weak privacy can have dire consequences. Privacy must, and I hope it will become a top priority.

A basic site with a manifesto or RFC (like 12 factor, semver, etc.) that can easily be shared and evolved would do it. It should be backed by EFF, Bruce Schneier etc. Maybe it already exists. If so, let's learn about it.

I care about this - spoke with my wife and her comment was 'think of the children'. I then asked if she trusts this government to keep it just to 'children' type stuff and her mentality shifted.

The criminals will always find a way - but everyone else will be screwed. Apart from the polticians and the rich, of course.

> Even when I bring up the fact that your internet history is already saved by all ISPs for a year

Can they only see which servers / domains / ips I interact with or can they actually see the paths / endpoints / request-params I use when interacting with exhentai.org?

What do you want to do, ressurect Guy Fawkes? Put a destroy the world switch in IT infrastructure? Kidnap Sundar wife's dog? Inspection triggered ransomware a'la Heisenberg? I have a better idea: serve the spooks loads of ads and The Daily Mail headlines.

All I want is my friends and colleagues to say "I care about my privacy and it bothers me that the government is trying to destroy my right to private communication with others" - not "meh, what are you going to do" or worse "what, you've got something to hide?".

> or worse "what, you've got something to hide?".

It's ironic that people use that Nazi phrase when it comes to actions of Tory government (and their faction called National Conservatives often use moniker Nat-C - try to say it loud...).

That won't change anything and it will only get worse with Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They don't want to catch pedophiles primarily, but instead shut down Russian propaganda channels, dissidents and whoever is otherwise a nuisance for 10 Downing Street. Back in 2010 it was the terrorists, then it was pedophiles, now it's basically the Russians, as the anti vaxxers were also a ruskii propaganda driven phenomena. But Russia and Ukraine are too far away, hence pedophiles.

Your friends and colleages concern themselves with their next paycheck, the mortgage and which pub they'll have a pint at after work. If the government wants to bother with these details they should suit themselves. I'm not saying I support this line of thinking but it is what it is.

"Your friends and colleages concern themselves with their next paycheck, the mortgage and which pub they'll have a pint at after work."

That's the problem, the overhead of living is difficult and distracting enough that the average person hasn't the time or commitment. In the past, there were fewer issues and lines were less blurred which helped waivers make up their minds.

Remember, distracting the masses isn't new, Emperor Vespasian built the Colosseum to distract Rome's population from troubles—grain shortages, etc.

"What do you want to do, ressurect Guy Fawkes?"

That's never worked and generally made things worse. We don't need to go back to Fawkes, the recriminations in the aftermath of the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich says it all: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Reinhard_He...

It seema like most people most of the time, only care about abstract risks when there is a skilled and coordinated publicity campaign.

that is exactly the attitude the UK government has been trying to cultivate for the past 3 decades

they don’t care because they think they’ll be the ones wielding the power

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