‘Broken’ solar panels manufactured to deter criminals in South Africa | Hacker News Reader

‘Broken’ solar panels manufactured to deter criminals in South Africa

dailyinvestor.com

104 pointsSenAnder112 comments

It defeats the purpose when it becomes common knowledge that the panels are deliberately made to look damaged. Probably also makes it convenient for thieves as they can sell actually damaged panels and claim that they're these deliberate ones.

Outside of remote farms and businesses in industrial areas, there are claims that some of the installers will tip off their friends/associates about large residential installations so they can come steal them and go reuse them elsewhere. Most people who install panels would live in houses that would require an electrical certificate of compliance, which TMK have to be issued by certified installers. So it makes it plausible that some installers probably buy stolen goods to increase their margins.

It's sad what humans will steal. In some South African rural areas, people have opted to start pouring concrete on a grave during a burial. A few months back I attended a relative's funeral, and there were a few freshly dug out graves (where it shows that someone was recently buried), and people were just going on with the business of the day, not seemingly bothered by this.

> Probably also makes it convenient for thieves as they can sell actually damaged panels and claim that they're these deliberate ones.

I think this is actually a good thing, since it will disincentivize people from buying stolen goods.

Nothing will disincentivize buying something for a price that is too good to be true. That is a risk many are willing to take. I see it all the time on reddit who fall for scams on Facebook Marketplace, Etsy, and Ebay.

Used to be you’d have to trap your grave to thwart the resurrection man.

I take great care to keep my bike dirty. I regularly maintain and grease the transmission clearance and bearings, but the frame must always be a little greasy and muddy, the handlebar tape slack and the saddle full of tape for fictitious repairs. Every part is carefully chosen for its quality and style mismatched with the others.

After having 2 bikes stolen back in college, my last (brand new) one was haphazardly spray painted rusty-brown and had cotton stuffing taped to the underside of the seat.

That one never got stolen, despite having it for much longer.

That all worked for me in Toronto, until the pandemic. Then someone peeled the tape off, revealing an actual crack on the saddle, and still took it.

Steel 27” wheel stolen. (And they unbolted the other wheel even though it was locked all along???)

Someone tried to rip off my dollar store bell, but just broke it (and possibly cut themself).

Bike light holder stolen, even though it’s like a $25 light and only a few extra dollar discount to buy without the holder.

Ugh…

And the whole bike is some steel POS older than me, but always U-locked, tho now I cable lock the other wheel and chained my saddle.

People steal the weirdest things: a couple of months ago someone got into my pickup and made off with a hitch pin that happened to be sitting on the floorboard. Resale value might be... two dollars?

Meth is a hell of a drug.

Anti-theft strategies can fail simply because some thieves are not in a fit mental state and act irrationally. I once had a bike frame damaged because I had it secured to a bike rack, and someone tried to steal it by grabbing the rear tire and yanking on the bike in the hopes that the lock would fail. Instead it snapped off a small chunk of the frame behind the rear axle. This was an aluminum frame on a $400 bike too, I was kind of impressed at how hard the bum must have been going at it.

I was impressed that the base of my bell held on. I used a crooked screw (patent pending) to make up for the plastic threads being cross-threaded…

I also do this. Had two bikes stolen in quick succession a while back.

Now: Duct tape all over the frame. Different handle tape on each side.

No theft since

I have just purchased 1500 brand new but broken panels (660 kilowatts)

The reason is a little different though... By being broken they are classified as scrap electronics rather than solar panels as far as import taxes go. That makes them half the price.

It makes good business sense when they still have a 25 year manufacturer's power output guarantee. The only element of the guarantee that is lost is that they no longer will be electrically isolated from rainwater. That means I need to install them inside barbed wire fences and extra signage to prevent trespassers and thieves getting electrocuted.

There’s an interesting incentive cycle here: decades of underinvestment in the power grid[1] have driven wealthier (in turn, primarily whiter) South Africans towards individual power sources, in turn fostering a market for stolen solar panels, etc. A good example of how private power sources (even green ones) exacerbate underinvestment in public utilities (since the people most capable of financing the utilities can opt out of doing so instead).

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_energy_crisis

That's a good data-point, because a few people were speculating that with the PG&E new proposed fee structure (lower per kWh charges coupled with a income-indexed flat monthly fee), the most wealthy would choose to opt-out of the grid instead of paying the fee, and this could trickle down until the grid was unsustainable.

It is already happening - some municipalities get nearly 50% of their income from reselling power and water - the people who actually pay for these services are now moving onto solar.

And with Eskom losing these prime customers it will mean increase bailouts from govt which means increased tax burdens on taxpayers who happen to be the same ones who moved to solar.

Out of curiosity - of all the reasons for underinvestment in and failure of public utilities in SA why do you find this one interesting? In the case of SA the failure is almost entirely attributable to the policies and practices of the government over the past 30 years. No amount of investment in the public power utility would make any difference - because all the money that goes in goes straight out via corruption and nepotism.

Those South Africans who can afford to go off the grid have not opted out of public utilities - public utilities are approaching non-existent - forcing people to spend on alternative energy just to have the luxury of having lights in their homes at night or cooking a meal.

I find them all interesting, it was just one that's been on my mind. We see the same thing happening (albeit on a smaller scale) in other countries with semi-mature power grids with high Gini coefficients.

Got it thanks - interesting that it's a general phenomenon.

When you say "past 30 years", I can only assume you blaming the issues on the end of Apartheid in SA. What do you think the Apartheid government was doing right? What do you think the dissolution of legal Apartheid did wrong?

I have heard of travel photographers doing this with high-end DSLRs. You can use miniature painting techniques to make cameras look incredibly worn to the point of broken.

Same with bicycles in New York City, even mimicking beat up duct tape and rust (although the entire frame and water bottle holder are carbon fiber).

There are more reasons to do this, other than theft. Often photographer does NOT want to appear professional, as it affects their subjects.

Wouldn't the amateur have a shiny, new-looking camera? If I see someone with the knurling worn off their focus rings I am going to assume they are professionals.

Either that or someone who bought second hand equipment because they can't afford new gear.

Or you could just buy a Leica M-P "Correspondent" [1] - by LENNY KRAVITZ DESIGN - that came roughed up and brassed from the factory. I think they only charged $15,000-20,000 extra over the $5,000 base price of a regular M-P.

Ahhh, the beautiful and strange world of the uber-wealthy and collectors.

Burt more seriously, I've often seen photographers use black gaffer tape to hide the prominent camera manufacturer logos.

[1] https://leica-camera.com/en-US/Company/Press-Centre/Press-Re...

> I've often seen photographers use black gaffer tape to hide the prominent camera manufacturer logos.

Most of us do that for reasons other than theft protection.

It's especially common for street photographers, as an obvious Leica or something will draw attention that we don't want - we want people not to notice us, because our whole goal is to capture things in their "natural setting".

I do it - in fact, I bought my camera partially because it doesn't look like a modern pro-level dSLR. It's a Fujifilm X-Pro3, and I've covered the logo with black tape and often use vintage (or vintage-looking) lenses. My intent is for people to assume I'm part of a college art class or something. It gives them an easy way to "put me in a box" in their hears, classify me as understood and unremarkable, then forget about me.

Prior to this, I had a silver X-E2. I'll never forget the time I was out shooting with a friend who had a brand new, black, Leica M. Twice people came up to us and spoke only to me, wanting to talk about photography or ask about my camera. I'd picked it up on Craigslist for ~$200 - my friend was standing next to me the whole time with a ~$7k Leica with an amused look on his face.

That was the moment I decided I'd never buy a silver camera again.

South Africa has had very serious crime problems for a long time. It's not a 3rd world thing because it's richer than its neighbors but seems to have far more violent crime. In general though, when the government is corrupt, suffers state capture, cannot even properly put a former PM in jail for corruption etc then you can imagine they're not sorting out any of the causes or causees of this sort of crime.

> cannot even properly put a former PM in jail for corruption

Sounds familiar

South Africa’s violent crime problem isn’t despite its wealth, it’s because of the wealth and, crucially, the inequality in its distribution. Higher inequality is associated with higher crime and lower social trust.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-80897-8

Seems like a useful trick for any existing manufacturer: Any defects that still mostly function could be sold to South Africa instead of being broken back down for parts.

With almost "everyone" (read: middle class ++) getting solar panels these days, I seriously doubt that we'll be seeing this much. I suspect it's just a gimmick, playing on our reputation for high crime.

I'm in SA (near Cape Town) and my house is surrounded by other houses that have solar panels - none look broken and I've yet to heard about one being stolen.

In our middle class area there is the neighborhood watch, and we have camera surveillance mounted at all the incoming roads to the suburb and ADT/Chubb patrolling the areas.

The brunt of crime happens in the poor areas i.e townships and Cape Flats.

What are the gun laws like? Why is crime so high?

Gun laws are definitely not as liberal as the US, since you need to register for a firearm licence. There is no right to bear arms, you need to be licensed to do it, which is possible for most adults. There is a theory and practical exams, and you are also legally required to own a gun safe at home. Once you have it though you can concealed carry which is great.

A long time ago I had to set up a remote office in South Africa and the local finance officer insisted on a wireless connection. I explained that an ADSL connection would provide a much more reliable connection (no shared medium, less interference etc) and his retort was something along the lines of "only up until the point that someone steals the copper wire". Apparently it happened so frequently that most wired connections were no longer viable.

Perhaps the South African "Blaster" anti-carjacking device from the 90s could be adapted for solar panels?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLhWzMOccTg

Those things have 4Kw flowing through them and the circuit breakers are located in the home - it would not surprise me if it is dodgy installers who are running short on stock and repurposing them :).

Looks like solar panels have a lot of enemies! Even crows are attacking them

https://thenationview.com/tech/45719.html

It’s like putting a ticket on your car to avoid getting one.

I did that once and got another ticket for "abandonment" and almost got towed.

Is that location's threshold for abandonment "long enough for two ticket-givers to see the same car"? That doesn't seem like nearly enough time.

Maybe the date on the ticket he used was ancient.

Just use the envelope...

... or driving an embarrassing piece of junk car to avoid getting broken into.

I was thinking of how cyclists will often cover new bicycles in crappy worn stickers to make them look not-new, and also Van Moof's idea to ship bicycles in boxes that look like they're televisions so they get handled better.

https://www.vanmoof.com/blog/en/tv-bike-box

In my personal experience, writing "fragile" on a box is the best way to get it yeeted across the shipping warehouse or stuck on the bottom of an 800-pound stack of packages.

Joking aside, the USPS and package couriers are not required to (and in most cases cannot) treat any kind of package more carefully than the others based on "fragile" notices and product descriptions on the box itself. Notices are required for certain kinds of potentially dangerous items, but other than that, the safety of your items is entirely up to how well they are packaged.

anecdotally, I know of some south african ISPs that have gone to extreme measures with steel armored containers, razor wire and such to prevent telecom battery systems from being stolen. Along with any other electronics. It's a hard problem to solve when you have lots of remote, unstaffed locations with electronics and batteries.

It is kind of on point for us - you have to put metal grilles around your gate motors or A/C compressors otherwise it gets stolen - not surprising considering the worst gini coefficient in the world (63).

Gini coefficients?

No.

Low chance of being caught, low chance of meaningful punishment, low public profile of punishment putting it out of sight and put of mind. High chance of being let off, which has a higher public profile. It may make wellmeaning people feel good and it avoids hurting some individuals, but it's disastrous for society.

If 38% of people don't have a stable income except for a measly govt social grant for R350 per month then it seems clear to me there is a correlation between poverty and the rampant crime.

I want my sassa grant! Imagine.. R350 is like half a bag of groceries at Woolies.

You get more of what you subsidise. Looks like that social grant did as designed and created a shitload of social grant recipients - politically useful to someone, at vast human cost.

An ounce of prevention, etc. A society that doesn't produce people desperate or disbelieving of the social contract enough to break the law en masse won't have people who break the law en masse.

Would this affect the transmission of light through the glass?

Reminds me of the reinforced door in my old apartment; when I got in there it was evident the door had been previously forced open. It was also repaired and would work properly, but signs still were very easy to spot. I chose to keep it although apartment theft was quite common there, the idea being that it should have worked as a deterrent, and it did: I left that house over 20 years later without any burglaries.

> In the first quarter of 2023, South Africa imported five times as many batteries as it did in the whole of last year.

> It shows South African households and businesses are becoming energy-independent and kissing Eskom goodbye.

I know this is kind of painted as a humorous article, but things are pretty dire in South Africa. You are seeing a lot of hallmarks of a failing state - there's just an overwhelming lack of faith in the government to provide basic services. Either providing utilities or deterring crime.

An underrated aspect of what is going on in the solar market is the enablement of off-grid living. This is HUGE right now, around the world. And while there is a positives that can come with individual self-sufficiency, it's important to note that it's not necessarily for the betterment of society. The people doing this are going to live in further remote areas - cutting down green spaces and consuming more fuel and resources than they would living on a city grid.

This particular green revolution is going to be privatized and inegalitarian.

A hen and egg problem? Are people to blame to flee density in failing states? Enabling them to do so doesn’t fix the core issue, but so doesn’t blaming them for their needs (in case of SA: blaming a minority for their needs already is the de-facto core ideology of the political establishment).

> A hen and egg problem?

A lot of Why Nations Fail covers this - collapsing or failed developing countries deal with multiple runaway problems.

I do not begrudge individuals doing the best for themselves. But in the grand run of history, democratic free markets with robust middle classes are mostly historical accidents where there is a critical mass of people mutually invested in collective success.

> This particular green revolution is going to be privatized and inegalitarian.

It's never good enough for some people is it? :)

Off grid is especially appealing when your power lines keep getting stolen for their copper.

You know your country's broken when you have to design things around thieves instead of customers. Hopefully the US doesn't get this far, but it does seem we're on the road to it.

I guess you don’t know what’s been going on for years in San Francisco:

https://www.carscoops.com/2021/12/people-in-california-are-l...

That picture is not of/from San Francisco.

How can you tell?

Because I clicked on the link and watched the embedded video?

I've never once seen anyone do that in the Bay Area. Given that the "source" is a well known tabloid (Inside Edition) I'll go so far as to say the whole thing was probably staged.

You seem confused. Perhaps you meant to reply to a different comment? The article linked in the parent comment is about San Fransisco, not the Bay Area.

I was also specifically asking about the picture, not a video. Are you assuming that the picture is a still from the video? If not, I don't see how this is relevant.

http://lmgtfy2.com/?q=san+francisco+unlocked+cars

Before shooting your mouth off you should really look at what's being talked about. Read the article, watch the video that's attached to the article. When you have something coherent to add, reply below.

Avoid acerbic, ad-hominem attacks and try to stay on topic. We would all benefit from a regular review of the site guidelines. Have a good day! :)

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.

Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents. Omit internet tropes.

Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

If you want a more substantive reply then don't wave about shallow dismissals e.g. "you seemed confused" when you've not actually bothered to do the one thing that would put my replies in context (and would've answered your questions in the first place). Waving the guidelines about is not a substitute for taking the 30 seconds to inform yourself.

I'm not confused and I'm not questioning that you've read the article, I'm stating that you've not. In any case, no matter how much you're trying to avoid being informed, that picture was not taken in San Francisco. Full stop.

The video says it’s in Oakland California

It’s an article about the Bay Area, of which San Francisco is a notable part. Some would even say the biggest and most influential part. San Francisco police and citizens are quoted in it, discussing that phenomenon. Is it your assertion that this isn’t an issue there?

My assertion is that you've linked to a tabloid (Inside Edition) article. Tabloids tend to misrepresent things and blow them out of proportion. That's why they're tabloids and not legitimate journalistic sources.

In this case I'd say your source is likely doing both. In a lifetime in the Bay Area (and a stints in Oakland and San Francisco specifically) I've never once seen people preemptively leave their trunks/tailgates open to avoid vehicular damage. If anyone's actually doing that, it's not very common.

SFPD as well has demonstrated a willingness to bend the truth in order to craft their desired narrative.

  Is it your assertion that this isn’t an issue there?

The other part of your comments that stinks to high heaven is just how focused you are on the Bay Area (nee San Francisco). Property crime is increasing nationwide for many of the same reasons that property crime is increasing in San Francisco and the Bay Area. But you had to say San Francisco when referring to not-San Francisco as if it's a dog whistle or something.

I had an old shitty car in San Francisco that I left unlocked to avoid breakins, people slept in it/went to the bathroom in it. This was over 20 years ago.

Inconspicuous design is universal, and not a symptom of “broken countries.” Compare intentionally beaten up looking bicycles, extraordinary wealthy (especially “old” wealth) people wearing inconspicuous clothes, etc.

Uh...I have never met someone who intentionally had a beaten-up-looking bike nor who dressed down to avoid being robbed. That sounds horrible.

There are multiple adjacent threads describing this exact phenomenon. It’s also worth taking a look at a photos of the wealthiest men in the US sometime.

Rich people don't dress down to avoid being robbed. It's been covered to death. It's a flex.

Is it?

Surely it's because some people want to display their wealth and other don't.

To me wealth is money in the bank, not sitting on the driveway. Who's flexing more or the neighbour with a BMW lease?

Are you sure? Maybe the point is that they blended in to be unnoticeable.

I know some rich people to be clear, and most dress modestly, but it's because they don't want to show off or they don't want to look tacky or because they still work manual labor jobs and those outfits are impractical. None have even mentioned a fear of being robbed.

Fair enough.

No? Those are both pretty common. You've never met anyone who drives a crappy car or leaves a little bit of trash on the dash to to avoid it being broken into?

If you've never even met someone who does any of these things I think you're living a pretty charmed existence removed from a lot of the realities of the world. I sometimes wonder what proportion of the HN audience is lacking these same basic experiences. Some of the comments I see on here make me wonder...

If that's common in your area, it says more about the area than him.

> If you've never even met someone who does any of these things I think you're living a pretty charmed existence removed from a lot of the realities of the world.

Or maybe live in a country that has low crime.

The Dutch ride crappy bikes because they get stolen.

The Netherlands isn't exactly a crime hotspot.

In Paris I know a lot of people who use old bikes because anything shiny or pricy gets stolen. For the same reason, e-scooters and e-bikes are very often stored indoors even during the day.

The issue is not only in solar panels in South Africa or cars in San Francisco.

Heh, in Paris, went to Ste-Chapelle, which is connected to the supreme courthouse. Happened to be during the terrorist bomber trial.

Maaaaaassive security. CRS everywhere, out of town Gendarmes there, airport style security to get into the church, police questioning every non-white person on the street.

And there it was, inside the courthouse compound, some low-end 80s Peugeot bicycle double locked to an interior fence.

I know a guy who bought an expensive bicycle and then gave it a hideous rattle-can paintjob. He did not care about resale value or looking cool, he just loved riding the bike and was tired of his bikes getting stolen while running errands around town.

> he just loved riding the bike and was tired of his bikes getting stolen while running errands around town.

...and that sounds horrible.

i have absolutely owned bikes, cars, etc. that were intentionally crappy to avoid attracting attention in the city. this is incredibly common

It is common/universal and also a symptom of something that is broken. (high crime, lack of enforcement)

Others have pointed out that even low crime societies (such as the Netherlands) regularly engage in this kind of small-scale deterrent behavior.

(I have never met a cop who was even remotely interested in helping me recover a stolen bicycle.)

South Africa is a dirt-poor nation that's suffered decades of colonialism and apartheid.

What's our excuse for our rampant homelessness? At least the thieves there have homes to steal solar panels for... (though, last time I was there, shantytowns were still common too).

And speaking of brokenness and theft... my god, look at the West Coast cities during/after COVID. It's heartbreaking, especially while our "country" keeps getting richer on paper. Extreme inequality was terrible for South Africa. It'll be terrible for us too =/

You should ask South Africans of any race if they preferred the "colonialism and apartheid" or what they have now.

Can you explain, please?

>South Africa is a dirt-poor nation that's suffered decades of colonialism and apartheid

At what point does that stop being an excuse?

Early 90s it had a peaceful handover of power, democratic elections, a functioning govt. Look at how eastern Europe has developed in the same period.

> At what point does that stop being an excuse?

Ah, the old imperialist "Look, I gave you your wallet back (after taking what I wanted from it); what's the problem? By the way, I need cheap labor and you look like you need a job." schtick.

Is the US still blaming Britain for its ills? Is Britain still blaming the french and Italians (Romans) for its ills?

Yes fine I took your wallet. But that was 30 years ago. Will your great grand children still be blaming my grand children for the stolen wallet?

Do I still get to hate the land owning elite over what they did to my forbears? Do I still get to hate the Germans because of the world wars?

Empirically the answer is yes. The more wrongs that have been inflicted upon you, the greater your moral standing. So long as you remember and publicize those wrongs. Because if you don't, others will make it seem like you are the sole villain of history, and they innocent victims.

That is what happens to those who forget history - others will remember a self-serving version of that history, full of tactical omissions, for them.

There's a difference between remembering, and moving on.

It's got nothing to do with "moral standing" it just perpetuates a victim mentality. People and countries need to move on.

That doesn't mean you need to forget. You need to remember, learn the lessons etc.

None of my examples have been forgotten, all have been moved on from.

When there is actually a true reconciliation for what happened in its past. This would require - as with Haiti, as with Venezuela, as with the poorer regions of China that have been essentially annexed by Beijing - certain international entities to get over their hurt feelings at losing a gem in their crowns of exploitation, and to end their marriage to toxic self-interest, which prevent SA from taking proactive steps to expand their pie, as it were. It would also require people within the country building a profound sense of national and communal trust (not rebuilding, because no such thing has existed before). One of the most famous para-athletes in history shot his wife to death through a bathroom door, out a fear that connects directly to the internalized lies of Apartheid and colonialism.

Define "true reconciliation".

Who are these "international entities"?

>It would also require people within the country building a profound sense of national and communal trust

Good point. But it hasn't happened this far, no one seems to be suggesting it.

Do you think south Africa would be better off it it broke up into its constituent tribal areas?

>out a fear that connects directly to the internalized lies of Apartheid and colonialism

That's a very big stretch

Your default to interrogation on an assumption that my statements are suspect is noted. I will not be indulging you.

>That's a very big stretch

It is not.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35006865

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2014/5/13/oscar-pistorius...

And yet you don't clarify.

"True reconciliation" could mean anything.

And your "international entities" just sounds tin foil hat flat earther

I shouldn't have to clarify. The nature of SA's history of exploitation - at the hands of numerous countries, companies, organizations, and influential individuals - should make the nature of "true reconciliation" obvious. It's on you to be well-versed enough in the subject to follow.

"Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Reply on news.ycombinator.com