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Comment by thefbi | Hacker News Reader

I'll just ask a simple question, if you are an American citizen which governments uniformed thugs have the ability to kidnap or kill you: the American or Chinese government? Which of these does not even need to send secret agents or beat your country in a war and has free legal permission to kidnap and kill you?

If you computed the results of this problem, the next question I ask is whom are you at more risk from?

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If you have ties to China, without question it's the Chinese government. They will go after your family back in China for what you say and do in the US.

I do and so far they haven't.

there are literally millions of Chinese people outside of China that can disprove this fabricated nonsense.

I have seen a lot more cases of the CCP disappearing people than I ever have from the US Government.

Is that a measurement problem? Is that a boosted story issue? Propaganda is delivered via an equalizer that boosts and suppresses different dimensions of reality.

Look I'm all for reminding people that the US government has done a lot of awful stuff, but..

No. It's not a measurement problem or a propaganda issue. It's just the truth. USG just literally doesn't 'disappear' US residents in modern times. It happens with nontrivial frequency in China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix

I trust my government to not infringe on my free speech but I don’t trust that another government that doesn’t have good diplomatic relations with mine doesn’t detain me if I happen to fly through one of their airports because of my beliefs. I avoid China and Chinese airlines because I don’t feel like censoring myself on the internet. Luckily China doesn’t have too many allies.

For reference:

https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/overseas-chinese-1021...

https://www.propublica.org/article/even-on-us-campuses-china...

https://www.thecollegefix.com/ccp-targeted-chinese-students-...

The Chinese police has little to no power to arrest you if you are an American citizen while you are in America, legally not at all, and practically they would need to expend great effort to do so. The American police has a "god gifted" power to arrest and kill you while you are in America, both legally and practically. These are simple, plain facts of the geopolitics and how governments are organized.

Moreover any such Chinese agents if caught will go through some rather unpleasant processes, does not seem usually the case for American cops even brazenly caught in various misdeeds.

>while you are in America

I’m not talking about while I’m in America. I travel outside of the country.

If the CCP can make billionaires disappear, they can make you disappear too.

Of course the CCP is your biggest threat when you are in their territory, just like how the American government is your biggest threat back home. Actually not even only in your home, given its extraditionary powers which I haven't checked but should be one of the stronger ones when it comes to 'extradited to usa'. Either case, on American territory and especially as an American citizen, the American police and American government is your biggest threat vs any other foreign power.

Again, I don’t have a choice in the matter if I want to live in the US. But I don’t have to open myself up to authoritarian governments who have a track record for targeting those who participate in free speech in other countries.

And also, you do have influence, as one of the citizens by whose consent the government governs. Not so much with countries you aren't citizen of.

The consent referred to by the other commenter is entirely fabricated and false. I challenge anyone within the US to show the contract giving the current administration explicit consent to govern us.

This level of narrative and dogmatic belief is how governments gain influence. They're simply the local bullies. If you need proof, look at how much they put into caring about struggling people. I.e. next to nothing. Our country betrays us daily and has the gall to demand obedience. We are not dogs.

I think that's a other huge reason to not let China into our kid's hands. If it was a country that is well known for building and maintaining diplomatic relationships that would be great.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/two-arrested-operating-illega...

> Two Arrested for Operating Illegal Overseas Police Station of the Chinese Government

And how many do your governments officially stamped thugs arrest? You don't even need to look up any stats to guess its in the ballpark of thousands or perhaps even the million per year.

Edit: example stats for 2016 sourced from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...

In 2016, there were an estimated 1.2 million violent crimes committed in the United States.[88] Over the course of that year, U.S. law enforcement agencies made approximately 10.7 million arrests, excluding arrests for traffic violations.[88] In that year, approximately 2.3 million people were incarcerated in jail or prison.[89]

Also, which steals more of your stuff, on average? This Washington Post article's title offers a clue: "Cops took more stuff from people than burglars did last year."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-...

The article is from 2015, but nothing's been done to reverse the trend. I wonder what they've gotten the ratio up to in the last eight years.

Its almost tautological and by definition that your local government has legally granted power (might even say monopoly practically speaking) for violence and kidnapping over you. A distant foreign government has to expend great resources to do the same for you which your government would do with a stroke of the pen. Sometimes even without that thin veneer.

> tautological and by definition

That's redundant and repetitive.

If you want to be incredibly pedantic, something can be tautological without being part of the definition, and something can be part of the definition without being tautological (by way of contradiction).

Ever heard of Guantanamo bay? Ask those people (those alive) if our country’s government has the ability to illegally arrest and detain people, torture them, kill them. They straight up said all this shit is illegal so we can’t do it in the US, we have to break our laws in some place we can’t be held accountable to them. That’s our government. Want more examples of illegally detaining, beating, and letting people die? Ask the folks locked up in cages when they come here seeking asylum, some of them kids, who die of starvation while being held against their will for showing up at the door and knocking. I’ll stop there but we should knock off the “them bad, us good” bullshit because all of the governments are shit that do horrible things, and america is world famous for drone striking entire families just to get one dude we labeled terrorist (our free pass to do whatever the fuck we want to someone), and dropping nuclear bombs on cities filled with innocent civilians, twice, when intel suggested a surrender was imminent without having yet dropped one.

When you point your finger at someone, you have 4 pointing back at yourself.

I think you and the parent post agree actually - read it again :)

The US government doesn’t have legal permission to kidnap and murder you, not within the US. So it seemed to me like the comment was about china, sparking my reply. The comment could honestly apply to either imo, and maybe that’s the point. Do cops arrest people and kill them? Way too often. Those cops should be charged with crimes. But cops not being charged with crimes is not the same as it being legal, even if the end results are both the same. Or are we talking about the ability to imprison a criminal and put them to death for their crimes?

This is the problem with the original comment, it’s way to vague, or I’ve failed to make sense of it.

I am speaking of america or whichever your own local government or country is. Your government practically speaking has the legal monopoly to murder, torture and kidnap you. Chinese (if you aren't Chinese and not on their territory) does not have any legal power over you.

It applies to all governments but you are always at most risk from your local government.

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