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Show HN: Points and Miles Database

points411.com

63 pointswenbin18 comments

Bookmarked. This is information dense and useful!

Some notes:

1. The exchange rates are confusing to me. For example, on the page for Chase Ultimate Rewards, I see things like

    Exchange Rate (USD)
    2.00¢ : 1.20¢

How am I supposed to read that? 2¢ becomes 1.2¢ doesn't mean anything to me. I'm assuming it means that 2pts : 1.2¢. Is that right?

2. The Amazon Rewards ratio for miles is also confusing. What does it mean to get airline miles at Amazon? Why is that ratio different than the USD ratio?

3. Also, your links have a little arrow (→), which usually means the link will point to another website. But that arrow is on all your links, including internal ones. This made me a bit hesitant to click on any of them at first, because I was looking for more links inside your site.

Thanks for the feedback!

> 1. The exchange rates are confusing to me. For example, on the page for Chase Ultimate Rewards, I see things like > Exchange Rate (USD) > 2.00¢ : 1.20¢

> How am I supposed to read that? 2¢ becomes 1.2¢ doesn't mean anything to me. I'm assuming it means that 2pts : 1.2¢. Is that right?

In your example of converting Chase points to KLM miles, 1 Chase point equals 1 KLM mile. With a value of 2.00¢ per Chase point and 1.20¢ per KLM mile, this information helps you assess the worth of the transfer in USD.

By clicking on the "Exchange Rate (USD)" column header, you can sort and compare various transfer options. For instance, if you have 100,000 Chase points, you can evaluate whether to transfer them to Marriott Bonvoy (2.00¢ : 0.84¢) or Hyatt (2.00¢ : 1.70¢). Typically, the Hyatt option would be more favorable.

> 2. The Amazon Rewards ratio for miles is also confusing. What does it mean to get airline miles at Amazon? Why is that ratio different than the USD ratio?

Could you please specify the exact page you are referring to? Is it the page for converting Chase points to Amazon Rewards https://www.points411.com/p/chase-ultimate-rewards/ or the page specifically for Amazon Rewards https://www.points411.com/p/amazon-rewards/?

Additionally, could you clarify what you mean by "getting airline miles at Amazon"? Are you referring to transferring Amazon Rewards to airline miles? As far as I'm aware, there is no option for such transfers from Amazon to miles.

> 3. Also, your links have a little arrow (→), which usually means the link will point to another website. But that arrow is on all your links, including internal ones. This made me a bit hesitant to click on any of them at first, because I was looking for more links inside your site.

Good call! Definitely will make the UI less confusing :)

> With a value of 2.00¢ per Chase point

It's very unclear how you've obtained this value and it absolutely does not match my actual experience.

I've exceeded 2 cents historically with a small number of redemptions (generally UR->Hyatt for particular properties during high demand), but on average I've done nowhere near 2 cents a point. Even 1.5 cents with CSR is dubious, since their booking portal almost never offers the best deal.

All anyone ought to care about is the average redemption value, in which case 2 cents is obviously wrong.

There's a lot of "point value" claims floating around the internet but it would be really nice to see something data driven based on actual user redemptions.

If you're going to redeem points as cash for flights, the UR portal seems fine IME, there's less variation unless you're booking consolidator fares. You're going to get 1.5c per point using the Reserve card.

To get more than 2c per point, you have to be redeeming against business/first class or otherwise very expensive tickets.

But is it still worth 2c if you would have never paid $11k for the seat in the first place?

> But is it still worth 2c if you would have never paid $11k for the seat in the first place?

Nope. I've even second guessed the Hyatt hotel reservations on this basis (I would likely have selected a different hotel).

The whole thing is really dubious. The banks have a major interest in convincing us that their points are worth more than they're actually typically redeemed for. A whole lot of the travel/point blog sites are essentially astroturfed.

If I could get all of my UR points cashed in at 1.5 cents I'd take the deal. Cash is just so much more flexible.

Maybe the best way to tackle this problem is a survey: "what's your cash-in value?"

1. Makes sense. I have no idea how you can communicate that intrinsically in the data. Your explanation here would make a good landing page copy.

2. I was looking at this page (https://www.points411.com/p/chase-ultimate-rewards/). The heading on the first data column is "Exchange Rate (Point/Mile)" which I took to mean "Points per Mile", but now I'm realizing you meant "Point OR Mile". So that means 10 Chase points will get me 8 Amazon... "points"?

This is still a little weird, because I don't think I've ever heard of Amazon having "points". It's all just dollars. The useful ratio would be "100pt:80¢". I want to know how much money (or how many miles) my points are worth. I don't think I've ever seen a redemption at 2¢ per point, so the 20¢:8¢ thing doesn't help me in isolation. It only helps when comparing to other Chase:XXXXX ratios.

One idea: Instead of listing all ratios in common units on both sides of the ":", let the user select what they have and what they want. Something like:

    I HAVE ([]points   []miles) AND WANT ([]points   []miles   []dollars)

and list all the exchange rates only in the terms selected.

Different question: How do you determine the value of points in the first place? If the best I can do with my Chase points is 1.7¢ at Hyatt, then what can I do to get 2¢ of value from them? Some internal shopping thing?

Thanks for taking the time!

> "Exchange Rate (Point/Mile)" which I took to mean "Points per Mile",

I see... It's bad UI design from me :( Need to work on a less confusing copy/UI.

> This is still a little weird, because I don't think I've ever heard of Amazon having "points".

You can earn "Points" with Amazon branded cards, e.g., https://www.amazon.com/b/ref=s9_acss_bw_cg_swpsf20_2c1_w?nod...

100 Amazon Rewards Points = US $1

> One idea: Instead of listing all ratios in common units on both sides of the ":", let the user select what they have and what they want. Something like:

> I HAVE ([]points []miles) AND WANT ([]points []miles []dollars)

Yes, this is on the roadmap. We have already integrated most of the commonly used rewards programs (in USA) into our database. The logical next step is to develop a tool that allows conversions like this: X points from Program #1 can be converted into Y miles from Program #2, and so on.

> Different question: How do you determine the value of points in the first place? If the best I can do with my Chase points is 1.7¢ at Hyatt, then what can I do to get 2¢ of value from them? Some internal shopping thing?

It's a cold start problem.

In an ideal scenario, we would have access to a lot of real transactions, such as X miles being used to purchase an air ticket worth Y USD, allowing us to calculate the exact value of 1 mile in terms of USD.

However, as we are just beginning, we have no users to provide this data. Our path forward is clear:

Step 1: We create a database and use estimated point/mile values found online, such as those provided by The Points Guy. While not ideal, this approach provides a necessary starting point.

Step 2: Users will be able to create accounts to track their points/miles and input real-world transactions.

Step 3: In the future, when we have enough data, we will be able to aggregate and calculate a more accurate value for points/miles in terms of USD.

Currently, we are at Step 1 :)

> Step 1: We create a database and use estimated point/mile values found online, such as those provided by The Points Guy. While not ideal, this approach provides a necessary starting point.

If you're going to do this, you could at least cite the source of the values. I'm not seeing that on there.

That said, I find the values from TPG to be absolute junk, applicable only to those who would buy nothing in life but international first class airplane tickets and luxury hotel suites, and it's a disservice to pass them along as fact.

TPG is paid astroturfing by the banks and it exists to pitch cards and inflate consumer perception of the value of points. Disregard it.

If you want to use "reasonable" bootstrap values, I'd suggest using figures from Doctor of Credit, which is one of the few large blogs I actually trust.

On this topic:

https://www.doctorofcredit.com/common-loyalty-points-miles-v...

One of the arguments made in this article is that many brands effectively "sell" points (e.g. by offering double point nightly rates), and the points should NEVER be valued above this.

Specifically for MR points, they identify 1 cent as a "good" redemption and 0.85 as the "cash out" value:

https://www.doctorofcredit.com/loyalty-programs/credit-card-...

> TPG is paid astroturfing by the banks and it exists to pitch cards and inflate consumer perception of the value of points.

Source?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Points_Guy#Products_and_...

This is cool. One feature that would be awesome would be to query the "graph" of points.

I have point type A and I want type B - what's the most economical path to walk between the two point types.

Thanks for the feedback :) Yes, it’s on the roadmap.

However, in practice, indirect transfers usually don’t give you good exchange rates - I might be wrong though

+1 for this! Seems useful

How do you source your data and conversions?

This. There a couple sites like this, some say membership rewards are 2 cpp, some say 1.8cpp, some say 1cpp.

It's not as cut and dry all of the time, so having some kind of information for where you're sourcing the values and when would be useful.

To be useful you'll need to track transfer promotions as well. Might be useful to create a signup feature where users are notified of promotions for balances they have.

Thanks for the suggestion. This is on the roadmap.

Step 1 (almost done with v1): Have a database with rewards programs names & base transfer rate (which don't change often).

Step 2 (TODO): Add more dynamic things, e.g., bonus transfers

Step 3 (TODO): Allow people to sign up and keep track of their programs & points/miles

Step 4 (TODO): more tools based on Step 1 ~ Step 3

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