Why I (A Woman) Stopped Telling Young Girls to Go Into Engineering

So, I feel weird whenever I see articles like this on hacker news, not because the subject isn't worth discussing, but because I feel like the only commentary that's "acceptable" is platitudes. There's no real room for exploration or thought experiments. The stakes are too high. It's not really a discussion, it's more of a social game. Not a social game in the farmville sense, but in the Eric Berne "Games People Play" sense. It's often quite ritualized.

That said, I feel like this article is conflating an obvious cultural issue with a gender issue, and I think that's a mistake. The link to me between the culture problem and the gender problem isn't super obvious. I have a lot of the same complaints as her with regard to a lot of startup culture, and I'm a guy. The suggestion seems to be that somehow this particular startup culture is obviously masculine, and I don't see how that's the case. I actually agree with some (not all) of the criticisms of that culture, but I don't think that it really has anything to do with gender. I don't want to suggest that gender never plays a role, because I think that would be naive, but if you're going to make that claim I think it's important you back it up with something solid because making everyone walk on egg shells based on conjecture just makes things uncomfortable for everyone, and that accomplishes nothing.

The title is plenty link baity, though.

This reads like a good reason to advise people with wide interests not to go into the IT field as there's a good chance they'll end up in a bubble where all they talk about is IT.

There's nothing in here that specifically applies to women, nor applies to the wider field of Engineering.

For goodness sake woman if you're trapped in an IT ghetto then get the f*k out.

I've got women friends that went the trade route and became certified electricians later transferring to programming after running their own businesses - they're loving IT after male dominated site work. Another acquaintance has a background in pure / applied mathematics, she founded an Engineering/Math/Comp. Sci. faculty, hard work but no complaints.

My cousin has been in Civil Engineering for two decades and she's practically running a large transnational now, loves her job.

A scary reason that might reasonably justify telling young girls not to go into geology is that they might end up on a remote mine site as the sole female and getting continuously sexually harassed and eyed up as a potential rape victim. That's a very real issue.

Hanging out with a bunch of geeks that talk about nothing but their D12's and their Rails code is certainly not for everyone, I agree, but please don't use that as a reason to advise women to avoid Engineering.

I'd like to comment on her point that her co-workers are myopic in their interests: this is irrelevant to her argument as she could just as easily be a male whose interests lie outside of the status quo. I have seen many different kinds of people work together, and in the right environment acceptance is key. She may find that switching jobs give her a totally new outlook. Let me provide a short example: I am not a gamer and have really no interest. But I am fascinated by the mechanics and functionality of how a massive game such as WoW is created. So if a conversation turns to a gaming topic, I know that I have an opportunity to learn something (how does Blizzard scale, what is their stack/languages etc). There is no topic that cannot be made interesting.

This comment here depressed me however: "Yawn. Then quit, whatever. Stop bitching about it. The only thing I ever hear about from "women in tech" is complaining, and it's boring."

This is completely unfair and unhelpful. She has a complaint, and it is important for her to feel she can express this without fear of personal attack. Comments like this is the reason things don't change, because we fear being called out as 'emotional' or 'unreasonable'. A younger, or less confident person, will take comments like these personally and wonder if their concerns are valid. She has every right to enter the debate on her own terms and we should approach her concerns reasonably and fairly. Losing any brilliant mind because of suppressed expression would be a tragedy.

It sounds more like the poster should find another job. Maybe go work in tech at a company that actually works in one of her other interests.

The point of view taken here is effectively that the author doesn't encourage women to enter these fields because of the possibility of encountering an awkward social situation and being exposed to equal opportunity employment, however this issue is going to arise in ANY male dominated career.

The point about needing to connect in fields outside of ones work is also an incredible load of shit. I have more social interactions with friends that are completely outside of the tech world than those within. I'm a gearhead as well as a developer, and my girlfriend has begun to introduce me to the world of hair fashion (I color her roots on occasion). Because of these experiences, I end up with plenty of social interactions with loads of individuals that give me strange looks when I go on about the newest framework I'm playing with, or the excitement over a new linux kernel.

People have different interests, its as simple as that. Sometimes, people only want to live their work and nothing else. You should be encouraged to do what you love, not discouraged because of some superficial office drama.

I get it, she dislikes her office culture, but that doesn't explain why she'd pick such a gender specific title. I think it's a complete over-generalization to use her experiences in her field to warn other females. To be honest, it feels like a sympathy piece.

In the end, my take away from this post is exactly opposite from the purported thesis. The author's experience leads me to believe that we should absolutely be encouraging young girls to enter tech. Yes, it might be painful and lonely now, but if you start scaring girls instead of encouraging them, nothing will ever get better.

We're engineers; our jobs revolve around building efficient systems by finding the weak points and fixing them. A major weak point in the engineering system itself is a lack of women. This needs to be fixed.

[Edit for typos]

Isn't it true that there's a lack of intellectual diversity? Most good programmers read about technology, code, and do technical things, but do they have worldly wisdom? To quote Charlie Munger:

“You must know the big ideas in the big disciplines, and use them routinely — all of them, not just a few. Most people are trained in one model — economics, for example — and try to solve all problems in one way. You know the old saying: to the man with a hammer, the world looks like a nail. This is a dumb way of handling problems.”

I think by only focusing on one thing, a lot of programmers miss out on being better. This theme recurs everywhere. Feynman used to talk about using a "different box of tools" which enabled him to solve many problems. He would also keep many problems in his head and whenever he learned a new trick, he would apply that trick to all his problems. Every now and then he'd solve a big problem and people would say he's a genius!

Gian-Carlo Rota, the MIT mathematician, once wrote that Erdos and Hilbert (prolific mathematicians) had many interesting results, but it seemed they used the same tricks over and over everywhere - they just had different strategies.

It's impossible to develop new mental models or add to your toolbox when you're learning what everyone else is learning. But if you explore beyond your boundaries, then you'll pick up new things which will not only make your life richer but also help you in your endeavors.

And correct me if I am wrong, but can't you move in a different social circle than your colleagues? You don't have to restrict yourself to your colleagues and if you are a social being, then you will not find it difficult to find yourself the circle that you would like.

"Sounds like it's a job problem, find another job" - I've had over 6 jobs in my field. The longest for about 3. These patterns are all the same everywhere I go. I am good at what I do and so I join companies with other people like that - that's the only thing in common.

"I can't comment because I'm a man so everything I say will be sexist" - Not true. Acknowledge that there are people who feel this way about the industry. Until we can have a conversation about it, it won't change.

"It's not a gender problem, it's a culture problem" - Never claimed this was a gender problem myself. The type of work encourages these types of people to congregate. That, in itself, is a problem. We're trying to increase diversity in an environment that is not diversity-friendly (from an interest/perspective.)

"Learn to manage your communication" - At this point, I am a master of working with men, but I have to work so outside my nature. Keep it cold enough so it's not perceived as interest, keep it warm enough so I am not perceived as a bitch. It's a thin line that, to be honest, is exhausting to walk the whole time.

"Women don't love CS" - Wrong. In my department 80% of women quit after the first few years and most cited social reasons for it. You can take a liberal arts class where you can have intellectually stimulating conversation or you can take a CS class where there is rarely conversation about things outside of tech. I imagine that's hard. I loved CS, but I always needed to get out.

"Get outside the work circle and find other friends" - Sure, of course I have them, but as startup culture goes you work 9 to 9 sometimes. What are you supposed to do? You spend more of your time with your coworkers than anyone else. Why shouldn't you reflect on how that environment makes you feel?

"Is this a post about gender issues or startup culture?" - It's both! They are not separable. The culture, because dominated by men, creates an environment that is not necessarily pleasant to women. When the only answer is to get more women in, you're in a catch 22.

All other mean comments about this being a sympathy post or a disgruntled employee, read more carefully. Random negative comments only reinforce what I'm saying.

It seems the best solution for the first problem is still to get more women in the field. I can't say for sure, but I bet it would help the second problem, too. I wish she wouldn't give up.

It seemed like she switched themes halfway through the post

Consider yourself lucky, ms dev.

I don't think the issues she lists will be solved by having fewer women in the field. I also don't think these issues are unique to working environments where men (greatly) outnumber women.

I think the problems she referes to are completely unrelated to female in tech!

Understand this, and all becomes clear.