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Yes. Buddha himself was pretty much a Hindu. Most of his teachings perfectly consistent with the previous Vedic thought and where he differed again, it was perfectly within the framework where all other Munis or rishis would disagree with the established beliefs. Buddha's "dhamma" is basically just a different pronunciation of "Dharma". Buddha's primary teachings was around "nirvana" a concept which existed long before Buddha in the form of "Kaivalya", "Moksha" or "Apagraha". Hinduism itself does not have the concept of "other", it has wide body of work and it is also tolerant to a wide array of ideas under its umbrella and Buddha was pretty much under that Umbrella.

Hindus for example believe Buddha to be the 9th Avatar of Lord Vishnu. Their homes are full of Buddhist insignia and they name their children after Buddha. There is a parity in praxis.

"Pure Buddhism" is mostly a political issue and a much later addition to the discourse. One of the reason it happened is because a prominent caste based politician Ambedkar publicly declared that he is going to quit Hinduism because it did not treat his caste well. While Islamists and Christian missionaries rejoiced at the idea and try to court him he declared both the religions to be of foreign origin and harmful for India. He decided to become a Buddhist. This is the first time someone prominent tried and succeeded in drawing a clear line between Buddhism and Hinduism which since has become a bit thicker. The new converts however get called "neo buddhists" and aren't really seen as authentic buddhists by both non buddhists and original buddhists.

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>nirvana

It is nibbana in Pali, nirvana is in Sanskrit.

The same is the case for many other words related to Buddhism and its scriptures.

E.g.: Sanskrit, Pali:

Sutra, sutta

bhikshu, bhikkhu

maitri, metta

ausadha, osadha

smrti, sati

trsna, tanha

drsti, ditthi

(I removed the dots and other stuff below the letters, because I was not sure they would render correctly here in HN.)

Edit: See:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pali

in the section "Conversion between Sanskrit and Pali forms".

And:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Buddhism

When Siddhartha becomes Buddha under the tree, he is in the state of bliss, nirvana and he has absolutely no need to go back, go back to the human world. But it was Brahma and Indra who request him to do so as per Buddha's own account.

Interesting. I had read something a bit different, or maybe there is some overlap:

After nirvana, he felt compassion for all the countless beings who were not there yet, so he resolved to stay until everyone got it.

And that is supposed to be the difference between an arhat and a bodhisattva.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arhat

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva

https://www.google.com/search?q=arhat+vs+bodhisattva

I learned about when I came across this art.

https://www.artic.edu/artworks/142512/buddha-worshipped-by-t...

> Buddha's "dhamma" is basically just a different pronunciation of "Dharma"

Dharma is Sanskrit, Dhamma is Pali. There is not difference otherwise.

Otherwise, agree completely. Nicely put.

"Hindus for example believe Buddha to be the 9th Avatar of Lord Vishnu. "

So as to deny Buddhism is a separate religion, and co-opt Buddha among various Hindu avatars. This is how Buddhism was decimated by Brahminism in India, co-opting Budhha as their own.

Or a less inflammatory take, Hinduism absorbing stuff and evolving like it has for thousands of years.

What has evolved when it cannot evolve beyond caste system?

What has been done to Buddhism in India is inflammatory, not my take. The story of extinction of Buddhism is told proudly by Hindu seers too. So "absorbing stuff" is weird way to put it.

Let us see what Amebedkar says about anhilation of Buddhism from India.

> Such was the slaughter of the Buddhist priesthood perpetrated by the Islamic invaders. The axe was struck at the very root. For by killing the Buddhist priesthood Islam killed Buddhism. This was the greatest disaster that befell the religion of Buddha in India. Religion like any other ideololgy can be attained only by propaganda. If propoganda fails, religion must disappear. The priestly class, however detestable it may be, is necessary to the sustenance of religion. For it is by its propoganda that religion is kept up. Without the priestly class religion must disappear. The sword of Islam fell heavily upon the priestly class. It perished or it fled outside India. Nobody remained to keep the flame of Buddhism burning.

Very brave to selectively quote Ambedkar, especially on Buddhism and Hinduism. Let me enlighten you with his own quotes:

"History of India before the Muslim invasions is the history of a mortal conflict between Brahmanism and Buddhism"

"No wonder if Pushyamitra who as a Samvedi Brahmin was the first to conceive the passion to end the degradation of the Brahmin by destroying the Buddhist state..."

"By this proclamation Pushyamitra set a price of 100 gold pieces on the head of every Buddhist monk"

Are you implying pushyamitra was driven by Hinduism to kill Buddhists?

Note that the claim that Hindus "absorbed" Buddhism and also "put bounty on buddhist's head" is not consistent with each other, only one can be true.

And in turn the Islamic Mughal Empire of the subcontinent that destroyed this Buddhist priesthood was in turn replaced by that of the British. Indians still largely follow British ways even up to today. What do Indians themselves consider better? I don't know.

Kindness. You carry hurt in you. Try not to carry that burden.

> By this proclamation Pushyamitra set a price of 100 gold pieces on the head of every Buddhist monk

This is not historically verified I think.

The concept of caste has evolved in Hinduism over time. The roots of caste system are in teh concept of Varna and Varna system has its roots in Sankhya.

In modern India, the secular law gives special status to castes that have violence potential and hence has solidified its existence and yet Hinduism has already evolved the concept of caste to make it ever more useful to society.

You seem to have an axe to grind. If you are intellectually interested in the topic, there is no shortage of material on internet and YouTube.

The caste was never a Hindu concept. If you said varna or jati, it would have made more sense. Caste was introduced by the British because they wanted to homogenize the different heterogeneous communities in India into one structured classification.

Varna is occupation and jati is tribe. Each tribe had people with different occupations who supported the village life through activities of their professions. Inter-jati marriages were allowed, and so were inter-varna marriages. There was no discrimination within jatis, in fact, they all supported each other for the sustenance of their jati.

Untouchability was present in some cases, but it was between 2 jatis. Meaning, one jati would consider the other jati as untouchable. However, it was not between varnas.

This system became more rigid after British started classifying people into different castes, providing benefits to some and taking away some from others, and that's how the caste system evolved into what it was.

> There was no discrimination within jatis, in fact, they all supported each other for the sustenance of their jati.

While I do not doubt the rest of your comment, I have a hard time believing this. In my experience, humans are tribal animals, and are constantly jockeying for status, as individuals and tribes (even constantly moving in and out of multiple tribes).

The British may have formalized/utilized and exacerbated things, but I imagine any group of humans anywhere is always dividing and subdividing into various tribes for various purposes. The simplest being to show you are better than other potential mates in order to attract your preferred mate.

If there was discrimination, there would not have been intermarriages. People switches profession to suit their needs. Buddhist texts themselves narrate that jatis were not tied to any particular profession.

There are examples of a Kshatriya warrior working successively as a potter, basket-maker, reed-worker, garland-maker, etc; and a Vaishya cook working as a tailor or potter without social push-back.

The rigidity of the varna-jati system started after the Mughal invasions, due to their exploitative taxation. It made the fluid system more rigid in matters of sharing food and marriages, and disintegrated due to opportunism and social stratification.

The British raised frustration several times that Indians did not know their caste, and had to be coached for their census forms. This was because varna-jati was not considered important by the Indians of that time.

I find this sort of defense inadequate and it is often proposed by Hindu apologists who feel a bit guilty about existence of caste.

Caste is not a British construct. They did not understand it properly but all evidence suggests that they in fact encouraged caste fluidity in most cases. The mapping of castes existed well before British. In fact you can look at smaller colonies such as Goa which were never under British rule and you find very strong existence of caste. Same with hindu society that moved to other countries. Even if it was a British construct it is still the failure of Indian society to continue with it if you assume it is bad.

> Varna is occupation and jati is tribe.

This is not true. There is no basis for Varna being treated as occupation. Gita and all other books are very clear that this is a qualitative classification of people where birth also played a good role.

In modern sense your definition of Varna is worthless too because people in same occupation show no solidarity along these lines. But show strong solidarity along the "jati" line.

> Jati is tribe.

Jati is inherited from father. In that sense it can be seen as a tribe. But it is also a classification very similar to Varna. Tamil Brahmins have completely different gene line from say Chitpavanas and yet both are seen as Brahmins and they will quickly form a good relationship compared to say a Chitpavana and Koli (fisherman).

Calling Jati a tribe does not explain this.

The broad idea of "caste" is probably a better term as it seems to represent really well the underlying social effect everyone is more interested in.

-- Untouchability was present in some cases, but it was between 2 jatis. Meaning, one jati would consider the other jati as untouchable. However, it was not between varnas.

Most of the literature around "caste atrocities" is completely bogus and made up and does not stand close scrutiny. People might have been treated as untouchables, but it was not very different from you not willing to touch a homeless man on street of SF. Now you might find that there is very good mapping of race and homelessness but it is not the race which makes the person untouchable, it is the filthy lifestyle.

Most of the "low caste" people in India actually had very low social capital, were less civilized and had poor work ethic. Some of those castes quickly improved and suddenly became "upper caste". For example the most revered King from India is Shivaji who was from a lower class of land tillers who along with his entire tribe became one of the greatest ever "Kshatriya" (higher caste) person ever.

Once a person or tribe builds social capital they automatically transition into upper-caste. Those who do not, remain at the bottom.

> Caste is not a British construct It comes from a Portuguese word 'casta'.

But that's beside the point. You are mistaking the discriminatory nature of 'caste' with just the different nature of 'varna's. There was fluidity among varnas long before the British arrived and also inter-varna and inter-jati marriages.

> Tamil Brahmins have completely different gene line from say Chitpavanas and yet both are seen as Brahmins and they will quickly form a good relationship compared to say a Chitpavana and Koli (fisherman)

Where are you getting such information from? As a person who has lived in India for several decades, I can tell you this is not true. Nobody asks which varna or jati you are from, or no one even mentions these words at least in urban parts.

> Even if it was a British construct it is still the failure of Indian society to continue with it...

We never had a discriminatory system in the first place, and the only thing that remains today is the damage done by our various colonizers. India's Prime Minister Sri Narendra Modi is himself part of an OBC (other backward classes) community (Modh Ganchi) and has enormous support from Indians from all backgrounds, India's President Smt. Draupadi Murmu is from a ST (Schedule Tribe) community called Santhali. The chief of the drafting committee of India's constitution is a Dalit, as you may know, Dr. Ambedkar, who was in strong opposition of the Brahmanical patriarchy himself. Yet he was given such an important role, in a country where ~80% of the people are Hindus.

Chatrapati Shivaji's father was a Jagirdaar serving under the Nizam, so their family was pretty well off. You are right that he was from a family of land-tillers which is considered to be of a Shudhra varna. However, he employed people of all varnas in his operations.

> Once a person or tribe builds social capital they automatically transition into upper-caste. Those who do not, remain at the bottom.

Now that's just... head cannon. President Draupadi Murmu being from a ST does not make any effort to hide the fact. Getting to the post of President has not changed that. Similarly, Dr. Ambedkar's achievements got him far, but he still was a Dalit. Same with Narendra Modi.

I do not disagree with you at all on most of your points except 1 that British are responsible for caste in any way. Even if they were if Indians weren't completely backward and uncivilized 70 years is a good enough time to get rid of bad things introduced only for 100 years or so.

> Nobody asks which varna or jati you are from, or no one even mentions these words at least in urban parts.

It matters 100% when it comes to renting places, dating, marriage, friendship, kitchen access and so on.

> We never had a discriminatory system in the first place, and the only thing that remains today is the damage done by our various colonizers.

There are two types of discriminations. One is the ethical one. For example if you believe in free speech like US first amendment as a good principle, from it follows the principle of right of association and not association. All the discriminations the caste grifters often cite as "oppression" are actually perfectly ethical and in line with values like free speech, right of association and individual liberty. For example discrimination in marriages, dating, renting, room sharing, offering access to private areas, sharing food everything is perfectly ethical and also socially useful.

The other form of discrimination where you discriminate on behalf of someone else who expects you not to discriminate is obviously unethical, harmful and against the principles I cited above. For example government reserving government jobs for certain castes, government forcing private institutions to reserve seats based on caste or Individual employee discriminating in hiring when their employer does not expect them to.

I agree with you that Indian people in general do not discriminate that much in latter harmful type of discriminations (unless law mandates such discrimination) with exception of politics. There is no evidence that TCS, Infosys, Ambanis, Tatas ever discriminating in employment either. There is no evidence that there is any economic boycott of any castes either. Caste structure for example encourages inter-caste trade.

The most discriminatory aspect of Indian life is politics. Ambedkar was precisely included by Nehru because of his caste. He was a political non-entity, Nehru used him for his personal agenda. Indian President Daurpadi Murmu is an affirmative action President who is President only because of her caste and otherwise have no other qualities that made her the first choice for that position.

> President Draupadi Murmu being from a ST does not make any effort to hide the fact.

She does it because it politically benefits her, the only reason why she is President is because she is ST.

There are plenty other examples for example Scindia royal family is Kunbi. They are tribals. So are Holkars. They are goat herders. You will rarely see them talking about their tribal identity. Daivadnya Brahmins aren't historically from the Brahmin tradition at all. They are Vaishyas, coming from goldsmith occupation, their wealth enabled them to upgrade themselves.

The British Census officers record this again and again. They note that how "Nayi" (Barbers) suddenly became "Nyayi Brahmins" (Brahmin in charge of dispensing ustice) as they acquired social capital.

British did their part in solidifying caste by accusing rebel groups such as Pindaris (Elite Special Forces of Marathas) as caste full of horrible ravaging criminals. But their impact on rest of the caste system is negligible.

> Even if they were if Indians weren't completely backward and uncivilized 70 years is a good enough time to get rid of bad things introduced only for 100 years or so.

If you think Indians were backward and uncivilized, there's no point in engaging further with you.

kula-s and jaati-s exist; injustices and poverty exist. Does the caste-system exist? One can't use injustices or fights between different kula-s or jaati-s as an evidence for the existence of the caste-system.

From: https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/what-can-india-of...

"While emphasizing that I do not attack and much less defend the caste system in what follows, let us look at the existing descriptions and their consequences.

(a) Caste is an antiquated social system that arose in the dim past of India. If this is true, it has survived many challenges – the onslaught of Buddhism and the Bhakti movements, the Islamic and British colonization, Indian independence, world capitalism – and might even survive ‘globalization’. It follows, then, that the caste system is a very stable social organization.

(b) There exists no centralized authority to enforce the caste system across the length and breadth of India. In that case, it is an autonomous and decentralized organization.

(c) All kinds of social and political regulations, whether by the British or by the Indians, have not been able to eradicate this system. If true, it means that the caste system is a self-reproducing social structure.

(d) Caste system exists among the Hindus, the Sikhs, the Jains, the Christians, the Muslims… It has also existed under different environments. This means that this system adapts itself to the environments it finds itself in.

(e) Because new castes have come and gone over the centuries, this system must also be dynamic.

(f) Since caste system is present in different political organizations and survives under different political regimes, it is also neutral with respect to political ideologies.

Even though more can be said, this is enough for us. A simple redescription of what we think we know about the caste system tells us that it is an autonomous, decentralized, stable, adaptive, dynamic, self-reproducing social organization. It is also neutral with respect to political, religious and economic doctrines and environments. If indeed such a system ever existed, would it also not have been the most ideal form of social organization one could ever think of?

How can we try to understand this odd state of affairs? The question of the immorality of the caste system became immensely important after the British came to India. Consequently, there are two interesting possibilities to choose from: one, Indians did not criticize the caste system (before the British came to India) because Indians are immoral; two, the Europeans ‘discovered’ something that simply does not exist in India, viz. the social organization that the caste system is supposed to be."

Fantastic summary.

1. Immorality of Caste => This debate needs to happen as to why caste is immoral. It did not happen in British times nor it is happening now. I am talking about discussing the more fundamental first principles to be considered. Even today it is mostly a dog-whistle at very superficial level.

2. Legal protection to caste system.

One new thing that has happened to Caste is that Indian constitution has offered special rights to certain castes. This has resulted into a competition to be part of certain castes and then use these special benefits which come at a cost of harm to other castes.

This indicates that Indian Constitution and Law subsidizes existence and discrimination based on caste and strengthens caste system. This also alters the fundamental properties of caste system that you enumerated. If constitution offers you special benefits for being a member of caste, you will assert that identity strongly as long as constitution is in force.

Part of the reason why caste does not matter for Indians in USA (in public matters) is because the law does not offer any discriminatory benefit hence you do not benefit from asserting your caste identity in public sphere. Proposed laws like SB403 by precisely aim to change it by create "caste groups" of "victims" and "oppressors" which then benefit (or get harmed) by their identity. Such groups can then be shepherded to support other political platforms that the leaders of these groups may own.

I hope, better term is "Consuming". Brahminism consumed the Buddhism to deny its existence.

I don't want to get into a war of "isms" Hinduism is much older than these isms and will outlive it. Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism like a sect like so many others. Hinduism is a collection of many sects. I hope considering Buddha an avatar of Vishnu is not meant for offence but the highest Honor.

> This is how Buddhism was decimated by Brahminism in India, co-opting Budhha as their own.

It makes no sense what so ever to me. By honoring Buddha, giving him one of the most prominent positions in the Hindu pantheon, extending Buddha's teachings and even internalizing them somehow was "decimated" ? How does reverence look then ?

This is how Hinduism evolves and always have been.

Embrace, Extend and Extinguish is what was followed by Brahmins to decimate Buddhism. If purpose was to absorb his teachings, the caste system is still present. No present day Hindu remembers or honors Buddha or his teachings. That's just laughable excuse to justify Buddhism not present in the land of Budhha. It is a cautionary tale, there's no reverence.

> is what was followed by Brahmins to decimate Buddhism.

Looks like you deep rooted anti-semitic hatred for Brahmins more than anything else.

> No present day Hindu remembers or honors Buddha or his teachings.

Well I do ! In fact some of the greatest Hindu philosophers spent their lifetime studying Buddhism and writing books. Even the Vipassana teachers in USA and everywhere happen to be Hindus not Buddhists.

> If purpose was to absorb his teachings, the caste system is still present.

Buddha himself was a proponent of basic tenants of caste. Buddha primarily took Brahmins as his disciples. Nearly 40% of his students where Brahmin and nearly all who got popular and wrote about buddhism were Brahmins. Buddha's multiple childhood friends studied at Takshashika a Hindu university that existed before Buddha and later prominent Hindu Brahmins like Aryabhatta studied at Buddhist universities like Nalanda.

When the Shakya king decides to disown his wife because she was born to a low caste mother, Buddha stops him, not by citing that "caste is evil" but rather the well established Hindu rules of caste that it is father's caste that should matter and not that of mother. Not to mention Buddha also predicted the future Buddha to be "maitreya" a person born in Brahmin family.

Even on the matter of "caste", Buddha is pretty much a Hindu.

While your phrasing is comprehensible, I don't think one can use the term 'anti-semitic' correctly in this context.

Anti-semitic is a very deliberate choice here. Anti-semitic implies a highly prejudiced hatred against jewish people. The hatred from Brahmins is exactly the same, to the extent that some of the caste grifters literally use Nazi era propaganda posters and replace the Jew with Tamil Brahmin. (I am not a Tamil Brahmin, I only observe this from outside).

See this for example: https://indicworks.org/2023/05/04/sb403-is-hindu-segregation...

You say you honor his teaching.

what is the teaching of Buddha's?

You are making a naive assumption here that there was no religion present in India before Buddha, and that after Buddha established his Dharma everyone should have abandoned their respective religions to take up Buddhism.

Ashoka converted to Buddhism and ruled almost the whole of the Indian subcontinent at one point. But that doesn't mean he converted all Hindus to Buddhist. Few Hindus may have converted, but 'land of Buddha' also happens to be the 'land of Sanatana Dharma' where there are several other deities people worshiped and traditions people practiced.

To me it looks similar to how Islam included Jesus: making him one of the most prominent prophets, while at the same time denying the core tenet of Christian doctrine (that he'd be the son of god, unus et trinus).

> This is how Hinduism evolves

It is indeed how religions evolve - literally by forking. Like Christianity forked Judaism (and was itself forked by Islam), Buddhism forked from Hinduism. Sometimes some patches are retrofitted on the original tree, sometimes trees diverge so much that it's hard to see the common root. Sometimes reformers go back to the original project, once their patches get somewhat accepted (a lot of anglicans after Vatican Council II...); sometimes they don't.

Whatever the result, it's important to respect one's choice - if buddhists reject the place that modern Hinduism tries to fit them into, because they think the patch is not enough, that's their call and there is no point insisting otherwise.

I wonder if they had something better than git.

Note that none of the key philosophers around that time bothered with the "identity", it is a modern concept primarily driven by politics and exposure to outside religions.

So for none of them it was a fork. They all developed on the main branch, in the absence of centralized PR approvers everything gets merged.

In India this identity matters even more as the Indian constitution offers different rights to you based on your identity and you get to benefit from "unequal laws" hence everyone deeply gets sentimental about it.

> To me it looks similar to how Islam included Jesus: making him one of the most prominent prophets, while at the same time denying the core tenet of Christian doctrine (that he'd be the son of god, unus et trinus)

One has to look how Islam treated the faiths around it when Islam obtained power. It was mostly genocide and iconoclasm at scale not seen before. Even acknowledgement of Jesus in the Koran is more to enable easier conversion into Islam. The concept of conversion for example existed in Islam.

Buddhism deals with far subtle and much more complex ideas like nature of reality. You can see a detailed discussion here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAZPWu084m4 (Note that the monk talking here is a Vedantist, talking with great respect and reverence to Buddha/Buddhism and on Buddha's birthday).

> Whatever the result, it's important to respect one's choice - if buddhists reject the place that modern Hinduism tries to fit them into, because they think the patch is not enough, that's their call and there is no point insisting otherwise.

I think that is a great analogy, but note that Hinduism has not tried to "fit buddhism" into anything, Hinduism only point out that Buddhism's fork is pretty much similar to many other forks of Hinduism which have not been identified as separate from Hinduism.

Neither Hindu nor Buddhist philosophy however cares about such distinctions or boxes as they are completely irrelevant to their objective, it is mostly for people to argue. (This is not true for Islam and Christianity, Islam denies you heaven if you havent accepted Islam before death, Christianity does the same, hence it matters deeply whether you are Christian or Muslim, mere believing in the God wont help.)

Overall "melting pot" mentality is a good thing and must be encouraged and a good thing. It helps people find common ground and love each other rather than needlessly quarrel and fight.

>(Note that the monk talking here is a Vedantist, talking with great respect and reverence to Buddha/Buddhism and on Buddha's birthday).

He (Swami Sarvapriyananda) has a lot of other interesting talks too, many of them about Advaita (Vedanta), which is the main focus of his work.

He is at the Vedanta Society of New York, which was started by Swami Vivekananda in 1894.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Vivekananda

https://www.vedantany.org

https://www.vedantany.org/resident-minister

I think the Buddha would've not cared to be an object of worship. That's kinda missing the point.

Please read my comment.. it answers your question fairly well. Though I'm wondering if you really want to know?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37210062

You are attributing some kind of consciousness and purpose to what was a popular movement.

The Hindus of that time were used to different sects within Hinduism, some denying Vishnu the supreme godhead, some denouncing the entire pantheon and vedas, etc.

The pansyncretisism came quite naturally and 'brahminism' is a myth created recently to claim victimhood (woke ideology of suppressors and suppressed, very similar to the worker class and bourgeoisie of the communist thought)

You seem to be missing a key point.

Brahmins are bound by rules, like:

1. They must sustain themselves by a livelihood that did little or no harm to creatures.

2. They could only accumulate minimum wealth for their sustenance, and that too only through the activities specific to them.

3. Punishments were harsher for Brahmins. For example, in instances of Theft,

i. Shudra had to pay 8 times the money stolen

ii. Vaishya had to pay 16 times the money stolen

iii. Kshatriya had to pay 32 times the money stolen

iv. Brahmins had to pay 64 to 128 times the money stolen

4. Brahmins were forbidden to make money by selling meat

5. They could not charge interest on lending

6. Could not touch weapons

7. Had to avoid seeking praise

8. Was not allowed to expect gifts from Shudras except in special circumstances.

(Source: Snakes in the Ganga - Breaking India 2.0)

It's their duty to perform rituals for other varnas, and if they get some money by performing those rituals, they can only use it for basic needs like food.

Brahmins were ascetics who had to follow the most difficult of rules. That and in addition to the fact that they must be knowledgeable about Vedas and other scriptures is why a Brahmin's life is considered as the hardest out of all varnas.

With such rules in play, it would be impossible for Brahmins to acquire wealth or military power to subdue Buddhists.

from my point of view, you are correct, that they have taken the name of Buddha in order to promote their own thoughts and ideas. If it were really true that they revered Buddha, then his special teaching should still be present within the material studied by e.g. Krishna devotees. I recently went to have around 10 deep conversations with such devotees and I confirmed that they know next to nothing about his real teaching. While they insist they know, they repeatedly describe the essence of his teaching as "non-violence". However this is virtually nothing to do with Buddha's special teaching, and as a matter of fact, only someone who already has the extraordinarily high level to differentiate true from false and, put it into practice by never telling any untruth, would be capable of even practicing non-violence. His teaching is far more profound and constructive than the idea of non-violence. In fact, saying his teaching merely amounted to non-violence and co-opting his name, portrait, and tacit approval of their usage of his name, calling him an incarnation of the deity of their choice, while he cannot come to correct them, is nothing other than blatant and dear violence against Gautama Buddha. This is while they insist that the words in the gita from Krisha to Arjuna that it is literally impossible to kill are remotely valid. It's merely delusion in order to further avoid the truth that Buddha left. It seems narcissistic at best and murderous at worst. Buddha called himself a self-born, not an incarnation of vishnu, and his teaching wasn't non-violence, but rather, he even stated once that he was here to destroy delusions. it would make sense that, for a person like him, with massively superior wisdom, to have come and tamed all those around him in debate on such matters, who also said that he is the only one who exists between all of heaven and earth, thus superseding the deities of the current religions, would have to be co-opted by those religions. misinforming people is the only way for religious people to maintain their position of influence over others and over their own subconscious.

What saddened me even more was only the children I met in that large group of devotees were able to admit they had doubts about the Gita and were able to listen a bit.

Buddha also was extremely clear in the Lotus Sutra that even "nirvana" is not his real teaching. He states repeatedly and very unmistakably that he used the concept of nirvana as a temporary resting spot for beings who would be too arrogant or too ignorant to accept the truth if he told them as he knew they wouldn't be able to understand without much more of his cultivating them. So he lets them play with the concept of nirvana, and when he sees them cultivated, he tells them that what they thought was nirvana was no true final resting spot and that real nirvana resides with omniscience. He claimed knowledge of the true nature of reality and was very clear in his explanation of the fundamental laws and theories of existence: reincarnation and the law of cause and effect. How a good or bad thing happens. How to live well or how to become worse. Lying, for example, is not good for people. He revealed the ways from the problems to the results. As you can see this is a far cry from such a thing as ordering people not to be violent and not explaining how they can actually accomplish it.

suppose you were to hear that real nirvana is with omniscience... you'd probably have thrown it away too. or suppose you are a Krishna devotee who calls said deity to help or take control of your life - and Buddha comes and calls you "the blind who have eyes"... the main answer for people who remain in denial is to co-opt his name and deny that you're in denial.

it rather reminds me of modern Christians believing themselves saved from sin just through faith in their own ideas without ever having met Jesus and having listened to him scold them on their wrong ideas and practices. why do we think humanity killed people like Jesus and Socrates? just because we pretend to be part of a gentle religion does not exempt us from the same tendency. Buddha in reality was very lonely when he was here in this world.

as a matter of fact, modern Buddhism as well is not the real, living teaching of Buddha anymore - most people I met interested in Buddhism are also co-opting his name. He was very clear this would happen in the Lotus Sutra. that's why he intentionally withheld the true Dharma from people until right before he died. Buddha's teaching is not to kill your consciousness and to die forever (no more rebirths). Buddha is clear that he made up that he dies or that he won't be reborn and says in fact he is reborn many times. Buddha's real, living teaching goes in the opposite way of dying forever - he taught people how to save their lives and live forever. It's obvious when you really understand what he left but what he left has been changed so much to the point that even the higher level explanations have been polluted by words of ordinary people.

> If it were really true that they revered Buddha, then his special teaching should still be present within the material studied by e.g. Krishna devotees

This is not true about Hinduism. It isn't one of those "take all or none" philosophies you can pick your parts without ever reading about many other parts which you still hold in high regard due to tradition. Hindus do not hold Islam and Christianity in the same reverence simply because both ideologies are outside the umbrella of Hinduism.

Now, if the claim is that someone have used Buddha's name to promote their own ideas then reverse would be true, you will find Buddha everywhere including in Gita as someone who is subservient to their favourite God. There would be fake quotes about Buddha praising Krishna and so on.

> most people I met interested in Buddhism are also co-opting his name

This is true for nearly all religions and especially for philosophies. The difference between philosophy and science is that, to understand someone else's philosophy you need to possess similar intellect. Where as average student of science can study and understad ideas of genius like Einstein.

> The difference between philosophy and science is that, to understand someone else's philosophy you need to possess similar intellect. Where as average student of science can study and understad ideas of genius like Einstein.

where on earth or from who did you learn this abject nonsense?

Based on what you said, whatever you learned is not actually philosophy.

Philosophy is not someone's thoughts or ideas. Reducing it to that makes it equivalent to some random person's random ravings and trivializes the word.

The reason why you can't understand all of philosophy is because you have learned from someone who didnt really know.

Philosophy is easily defined when you actually know.

Or perhaps you think you are expert enough of all philosophy to be able to state so boldly that all of them require some level of intellect. I hate to break it to you, but that is an immensely arrogant thing to say, aside from being obviously self-contradictory and produced by someone who speaks of his thoughts rather than what is known.

meanwhile you're attempting to rob humanity of real philosophy, which is not at all apart from science. Philosophy and science are both part of the same object - two sides of one coin. Philosophy is the study of what is in the truth. We call truth that way because it's fixed and can be confirmed through literally anything.

But whatever you learned is actually a tool to deceive people who don't know any better.

There is a phrase: "buddha's teaching is so simple that can be learned by a three year old boy, but it cannot be practiced by an 80 year old man."

> This is true for nearly all religions and especially for philosophies.

Remove the word philosophy and I'll agree with you.

> This is not true about Hinduism. It isn't one of those "take all or none" philosophies you can pick your parts without ever reading about many other parts which you still hold in high regard due to tradition.

I'm wondering if you decided to completely ignore everything I previously wrote or if you've got something controlling you to be unable to correctly understand what you read of what I wrote. Chances are you are another person who does not actually want to know the truth. The best way to remain in ignorance is to falsely convince yourself that you actually do want to know.

There is blatant evidence that Buddha's teaching is thrown away. He himself says the Lotus Sutra is the one sutra that is rejected by the majority of people, even while he's alive.

Maybe if you had a basic amount of regard for him and even perhaps yourself then you wouldn't so obviously deny how deeply in denial you are.

I will explain something for you. Buddhism is not under the umbrella of Santanadharma, however much you try to neuter Buddha's real teaching so as to stay so comfortable in your own ideas. Buddha admitted the existence of Gods because they are equivalent to aspects of nature or because they don't really exist or are metaphors and he uses them entirely as such. The mere fact that you are possessed by a god justifies Buddha's using the term - because you are a servant of a dead God , it was accurate to call you one. But Buddha was clear that there are no beings. If you knew even a little of his real teaching then you would notice how silly you sound claiming that what you know even approaches his level. Buddha used words like bodhisattva or deva even though he is later clear about the true nature of those terms. You're the one who missed the point. Buddha basically intentionally trolled you.

Besides, if you really knew the nature of a real Krishna, you would see that the truth of those concepts do not originate in "Hinduism", whatever that is.

Are you aware of the fact buddha said, "in all of heaven and earth, only I exist"?

Stop changing his words if you want to convince the future humanity you actually respect him.

The fact is, for now, you are lying to people. The Gita makes repeated claims about Buddha that he either directly contradicted or which he never made. That's a sin.

The mere fact that you place his painting in the Gita and tell innocent people that you know he's an incarnation means you lied about him.

QED.

exactly this, same thing watered down

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