An anecdote on switching from the QWERTY layout to Dvorak | Hacker News Reader

An anecdote on switching from the QWERTY layout to Dvorak

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Check out http://colemak.com (Description copied from website)

The QWERTY layout was designed in the 19th century to allow typewriter salesmen to easily type the word "typewriter" and to prevent typebars from sticking. We've been stuck with QWERTY ever since. Colemak is a modern alternative to the QWERTY and Dvorak layouts. It is designed for efficient and ergonomic touch typing in English. Learning Colemak is a one-time investment that will allow you to enjoy faster and pain-free typing for the rest of your life. Colemak is now the 3rd most popular keyboard layout for touch typing in English, after QWERTY and Dvorak.

The promise of typing faster is not true, at least not for me. I type exactly as fast in colemak as in qwerty (110 wpm). However, colemak does feel more comfortable. Colemak is much easier to learn than dvorak (I reached the same typing speed as I have in qwerty in about a month). I stopped using qwerty that first month to really acquire colemak, but I have since been able to type in colemak and qwerty interchangeably without any problems.

'to allow typewriter salesmen to easily type the word "typewriter" and to prevent typebars from sticking'

Is that actually true?

I was deeply skeptical, too.

Wikipedia calls the "typewriter" unsubstantiated: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY. It's repeated a lot, though! There's a link to a paper which discusses it in more detail: http://kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~yasuoka/publications/PreQ....

Anyway, Wikipedia spends some time discussing jams and so on, so perhaps that's legit.

The "prevent typebars from sticking" part is true -- though the myth claims that it tried to do so by slowing down the typist, which is BS. It tried to do so by making common key-pairs move to non competing typebars.

Something that gets to me with Dvorak and its kin are how its designed for two handed typing all the time.

I have three typing use cases: left handed lazy mode, two handed code / essay mode, and mixed if I'm using a mouse capable text editor or something.

Dvorak / Colemak both take away some of the qwerty advantage of having quite a large chunk of the words I write on the left side of the keyboard.

That gave me an idea. I wonder if we are evolving modern English to cope with qwerty? That people favor words they can use off the left hand since the two modes of typing are either left + mouse or two handed? That would subconsciously make people favor typing things left handed only, maybe. I have no idea, I write code, I don't mess with silly brains and neurons. That sounds hard.

You might be interested in a project of mine. One-handed touch typing using your existing muscle memory.

If you're using your left hand, every time you want to type "K", type "D" instead. If you need to type "O", type "W". Type the key on the same row, using the same finger... just with the other hand. The app then runs predictive text on this and figures out which word you meant to type. So "tges" -> "this" as you are typing.

Your muscle memory already knows how to do this due to the ways our brains are wired. Thus very easy to learn. Use Caps Lock to switch back/forth to normal keyboard.

Mac Demo: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/one-hand-keyboard-practice/id...

Windows Demo: http://www.onehandkeyboard.org/download/

I just downloaded your demo and am very impressed. I forced myself to type with just one hand and it was much easier than expected (typing this comment using it now).

Do you plan to have a mechanism for allowing the user to change the auto-corrected result on the fly? (Other than tapping caps lock to correct then switching back to 1-hand mode). I did get a bit flustered trying to type "world" during a test run.

Thanks! It is pretty amazing how easy it is to 'learn'.

If you press tab while in an active prediction you can flip through the available word options.

The Mac version also has a nice little pop-up window that shows those options as you are typing. Tab or up/down arrow swaps the word.

A lot of the comments on the original post suggest that keyboard shortcuts are an impediment to adoption. I type in Dvorak, use Vim with hjkl (actually, jkhl, which I find easier because vertical movement is on my left hand and horizontal on my right), and I make copious use of other shortcuts.

The answer is: you just start using them in their new locations. It doesn't take long for your muscle memory to adjust, and today (~2 years after switching) I can't remember the last time I had to think twice about j,k,h,l, ctl-p, ctl-n, ctl-a, ctl-e, cmd-c, cmd-x, cmd-v, or any other common shortcut.

Don't use a variant that reverts to QWERTY when you hold the command key or something silly like that---you'll just confuse yourself and slow down your adoption.

A lot of people are annoyed that many one-handed shortcuts become two-handed on Dvorak. I switched before I knew about OS X's Dvorak-Qwerty ⌘ mode, but I almost went back to Qwerty because of the shortcuts.

That's interesting. I actually appreciate that certain shortcuts become two-handed. The proximity (on QWERTY) of X, C, and V to the left ⌘ key promotes a cramped, claw-like chording that is antithetical to the purpose of Dvorak (ergonomics). I find myself wishing that the X key were on the right hand for this reason.

Of course---neither layout dictates a 1 or 2 hand maneuver because there are two ⌘ keys, but I think it's common for users to want to use one or the other (for me, the left, unless I'm using it with the + and - keys, for some reason).

IIRC, that OS X mode doesn't carry through to Swing properly. Not a big deal for many, but I use IDEA and RubyMine pretty heavily so it was a no-go.

Completely agree. One of the points people like to make when they discover I use Dvorak is that keyboard shortcuts become a huge pain. After a while they become as natural as the QWERTY ones.

I've been using Dvorak for a little over 7 years and I still find myself regress to QWERTY shortcuts on occasion. The real problem I've found is when I don't remember the location but remember the mnemonic. It could be related to never being able to fully kick QWERTY: my wife and co-workers still use QWERTY, so I have to type in that layout with some amount of regularity.

I've been typing on QWERTY forever and see no reason to change. It's infinitely compatible (I don't have to worry about making DVORAK work on my phone or tablet) and speed is never an issue.

I'm a Dvoraker, and the difference between typing on an actual keyboard and on a touchscreen is enough that I can happily go between the two.

The issue isn't about speed, it's about comfort. Two years later and I can't type any faster than I could before, but typing is a lot more comfortable. The analogy I use is headphones - when you switch from iPod headphones to an audiophile pair, you notice the difference the most when you switch back. When I type Qwerty, I can't help but notice "wow, my hands are moving all over the place".

Edit: I should mention that I accomplish switching by using two-finger hunt-and-peck with Qwerty and touch-typing on Dvorak, which maybe lessens it a bit.

This:

> The issue isn't about speed, it's about comfort.

That's an important point. Sure, (I think I read somewhere that) the touch-typing champion uses Dvorak. However, I don't think that I type any faster after 2 years of Dvorak---I just type more effortlessly. Going back to QWERTY feels like a game of Twister.

I would also like to agree here: I have been a Dvorak user for over 5 years and don’t find it a problem to “type” QWERTY on my iPhone (I imagine it’s kind of like how we all got good at T9 back in the day), though it is definitely annoying to type QWERTY on a laptop keyboard now (not that I have to often).

I don't have a problem using QWERTY on my iPhone---I think it's because thumb-typing is different than 10-finger typing. I do get frustrated by iPads though (I don't have one for this reason, though the new one is tempting).

I recently found a jailbreak-only dvorak keyboard addon which worked pretty well.

You shouldn't worry about not being able to type qwerty anymore - I use dvorak on my main keyboard, but qwerty when I type directly on my laptop and it works perfectly fine.

I type in Dvorak on my keyboard but wouldn't be able to use it on a phone. I have no idea what the Dvorak layout looks like, but I see multiple QWERTY keyboards every day.

It's also optimized for two-handed typing, not screen-tapping, so Dvorak on a phone likely has no improvement over QWERTY. For that you would need something like: http://www.almaden.ibm.com/u/zhai/ATOMIK.htm

I switched many years back now. One good thing is that I never got past hunt-and-peck with QWERTY, despite being quite fast. As I started learning Dvorak by doing touch-typing, an inevitability given a physical QWERTY layout, it now resides in a different area of my brain.

That means that I can touch-type Dvorak, hunt-and-peck QWERTY , and can easily switch between them at any time.

But it still doesn't mean that typing on QWERTY doesn't feel like someone took pliers to my hands. Typing on QWERTY feels like I'm purposely trying to hurt my hands. That keyboard layout should be outlawed or its use at least strongly discouraged, I'm not kidding, for being:

a) Pointlessly wrong and

b) Doing actual physical damage to its users, more so than any other layout

Sure, it may take some weeks of learning Dvorak to realise how utterly painful QWERTY can be, but QWERTY is god-awful.

Even Cmd-X/C/V now feel wrong, because you're engaged in a clawing motion that leaves either one's middle or pointing digit in a very bizarre position. With Dvorak, the combined movement in the left and right hands is probably about the same as the movement needed in the left hand alone even in the sub-optimal Cmd-V or Cmd-Z - with QWERTY Cmd-X/C/V means that the entire left hand has to move, while with Dvorak the hand can stay mostly on the home row.

I switched to Dvorak about twelve years ago, in an attempt to solve a nasty bout of RSI (tendinitis in my wrists).

I printed out a copy of the Dvorak keyboard layout and taped it above my keyboard. From what I recall, it took about a week to be even barely functional. I was already a very fast QWERTY typist, so it caused anguish to put up with such slow typing. On the occasion that someone needed something from me in a reasonable timeframe, I would switch back to QWERTY, finish the task, then go back to fumbling along in Dvorak. Never switch keyboard layouts in the middle of a project. :-)

I would say it took about a year to really reach my full Dvorak potential. Even so, over a decade later, I'm pretty sure that I'm still not as fast as I was on QWERTY. I just don't think you can match the muscle memory developed when you're young.

As for the RSI, I would say that you're better served by getting a high-quality keyboard that suits you than you are by switching keyboard layouts. Microsoft Natural keyboards are awful (sadly, I didn't know this when I was young and switched to one, which no doubt greatly exacerbated my pain). Get a keyboard with nice, light, consistent mechanical switches. An old IBM Model M will do, or a Das. My favorite is the Kinesis Classic, which takes an extra few weeks to adapt to, but IMO it's nearly ideal for programmers due to the excellent arrow key position (also, this help with Vim + Dvorak).

I had a opposite experience with MS Natural: I used them with great success for 12 years - I would quickly develop wrist pain on regular keyboard. I only switched to Kinesis because I decided it doesn't make sense not to use the best tool available. Kinesis is great too - btw, if you are in the Seattle area, you can stop by their office and buy directly from them.

I read a bunch of research papers on different keyboard layouts and ergonomic designs, with the goal of increasing productivity. There is no consensus whether DVORAK is more productive than QWERTY, or which of the various ergonomic keyboard designs are more productive or less prone to contribute to RSI. The research surrounding keyboards is so conflicted, the only thing that makes sense is to try a few different keyboards and then pick one that is comfortable for you. It probably isn't worth switching to DVORAK because of the lost productivity while learning the new layout.

A more detailed summary of the research can be found here: http://grokcode.com/701/the-ergonomic-keyboard-productivity-...

I got a kinesis and switched to vim around the same time. I think that vim has made the biggest difference because of the reduced use of the mouse and trackpad.

I do love my kinesis though.

That's about correct.

It's strange that the geek-dom which is quick to point out all BS, from "bio-magnetic" bracelets to internet hoaxes and urban legends, repeats so often this Dvorak myth.

Here's a well researched article on the matter. There have been several discussions on HN also:

http://reason.com/archives/1996/06/01/typing-errors/1

TL;DR; Dvorak fabricated the "research" to make a sell of his invention. The very basis that Qwerty was designed to slow down typists specifically is also BS -- it was designed to avoid typewriter hammer jams, by alternating common key pairs to different hammers (something else altogether).

Even if Dvorak was correct at the time --he wasn't--, we as programmers, don't type much prose, which would make his metrics invalid and bound to be recalculated with all the symbols stuff we use all the time . [],{},(),,"",- etc. For example, a period is something that occurs once at the end of every sentence in prose. In common programming that would be the semicolon.

I think much of the viral nature of the Dvorak myth is due to the feeling of superiority the guy that adopted Dvorak gets (plus investment). This makes him much less prone to discredit it.

Anyone have suggestions about the best way to learn? I first heard about, and tried, Dvorak layout about 17 years ago. I've tried it two or three times since then, but since its so easy to switch the keyboard back, each time I'd get frustrated (because I needed to get real work done) and decide to do it later when I didn't need to get real work done.

Nowadays, I think that the solution might be a Dvorak keyboard cover for the macbook. This way I can hunt and peck in Dvorak while learning, or at least find the key and not be completely stymied.

Here's the first keyboard cover I found in Dvorak format: http://www.kbcovers.com/servlet/Categories?category=Dvorak

I just took a bunch of blank adhesive labels, cut them into key-sized squares, pasted them to my keyboard, and wrote the Dvorak letters on them. I kept them on for about a month, I think, until I realized I didn't need them anymore, then just removed them.

I would strongly advise against hunting and pecking. Print out the Dvorak layout and place it next to your computer, put your fingers on the home row, and type. Doesn't matter how slowly---it's important to make the correct finger press the correct key. Don't switch back and forth between QWERTY and Dvorak, you'll learn best if you do it in an immersive way.

Personally I think that a print out next to your screen is a better idea than any cover, because you want to break the habit of looking where you are typing.

I'm the original poster (and I just updated the post a bit), my suggestion is to print the layout out, glue it to your monitor, don't look at the keyboard, and get into arguments with people on IRC about something. You'll learn pretty quickly through frustration.

I did this tutorial[1] to learn the letters in a logical order and then I typed out a paragraph from the Wall Street Journal first thing every morning at work before switching to qwerty for the day. At some point I was able to get through the day without reverting to querty. However, I did relapse after a few months during a busy period of work. A year after that relapse I switched to Dvorak cold turkey and have used it full time ever since.

1. http://gigliwood.com/abcd/lessons/

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