Skill and work ethic concerns for TSMC's new Arizona factory | Hacker News Reader

Skill and work ethic concerns for TSMC's new Arizona factory

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14 pointsrendang30 comments

I've posted on this one before. I used to work at Samsung and it was the same kind of culture clash. I couldn't blame the Koreans though. Many of my American peers were exactly what they were afraid of. Policies that frustrated me kept others on target.

For better or worse, semiconductor manufacturing is one of the most top-down sorts of businesses that exists - and for very good reason. One mistake in this domain could cost 8 figures. You want people to follow orders 100% without any assumption or interpretation, unless it is their express job duty to question something or perform a certain type of analysis.

American culture tends to not be so aligned with this shape of organization. Chinese, Korean, Japanese and Taiwanese - perhaps more so.

If you look at a career in semiconductors more like enlistment in the armed services, you might have a better time overall. It is definitely one of the last places on earth you will be allowed to try out your fancy new javascript frameworks or esoteric functional languages. But, it is one of the best places on earth to learn about fundamental troubleshooting principles and what "value-add" really means in one of the most difficult ways available.

> American culture tends to not be so aligned with this shape of organization. Chinese, Korean, Japanese and Taiwanese - perhaps more so.

Is it a matter of pay? Because I bet you could get this sort of compliance for the right price.

I love how the TSMC staff try to frame this as American's not having a work ethic, when the reality is that they are terrible at managing people who do not respond as emotionless automatons. No one is going to put up with your shit especially because fab work is relatively low paid and the skills are non-transferable (hence the low pay). In the United States many skilled workers have better options.

It's not a lack of anything, particularly skill or work ethic.

It's a cultural difference. Work culture in Taiwan, Mainland China, Japan, Korea, etc. are all wildly different than North American and European work cultures.

None is better or worse than the other, no need to pass judgement. We just need to recognize, acknowledge and respect our differences in service of working better together.

> None is better or worse than the other

Of course there are better or worse work cultures.

Not if one is so cushy it demands to be automated. This is what high-end manufacturing looks like on the cutting edge. If we want those jobs and fabs in America, something has to give.

Isn't the issue that it can't be automated away at this point? Or at least not at a cost that makes sense compared to just throwing overworked engineers at the problem.

Better by what metric?

Quality of life for the worker? Financial returns for the company?

Sustainability of the organization.

Model corporations after organisms and view work culture as a measure of metabolic process.

If a work culture is chewing thorough too many employees without returning some tangible benefit it's not as efficient or as sustainable as one that doesnt.

Pick a metric and you'll be able to rank them no?

I'm highlighting that different people will have different priorities

It doesn't impact anything, you can still rank them therefore there are better or worse work cultures. I think we can even universally agree that, all else being equal, people will prefer an 8 hour work day over a 10 hour work day. That people prefer to not be on call and so on.

You and I are making the same point, which is opposite of the original commenter point.

You and I are arguing that a better work cultitr means better for the employed. The original commenter was saying better work culture implies better for the companies bottom line. Totally polar opposite philosophies.

Leaving aside that there is no such thing as a skill shortage or work ethic concern in a free market... TSMC should have done their research and priced this in. They've taken the subsidy deal, now they need to get on and make it work. That's business.

> there is no such thing as a skill shortage or work ethic concern in a free market

Agree on the latter, not the former. You can pay infinitely for a skill, if there literally isn’t anyone with it and you’re barred from importing those who can, that is a locked market.

That's fine, as long as there is literally no one in the whole US with the skill TSMC needs. Literally no one. Which I doubt.

Hypotheticals aside, I think TSMC just needs to pay more. What top quality engineer wants to move to Phoenix, do shift work, on site, for a notoriously demanding company, where he either needs to learn Chinese or be left out of most decision making and promotion opportunities? The answer is one on a 7 figure salary. But that's the cost of convincing skilled people to put up with the other decisions the company has made. That is WHY no one else is running a fab in phoenix...

> answer is one on a 7 figure salary. But that's the cost of convincing skilled people to put up with the other decisions the company has made

The debate is whether there is any price at which these fabs can be competitive in America. If you need to pay seven figures for what costs five in Asia, the answer is no. (Low six, on the other hand, strong maybe.) Perhaps the location in Phoenix, and Chinese-language culture, explain enough of the gap. Maybe they don’t, however, and until these fans require zero local labour input, they’re better built in Japan, Taiwan and Korea.

I think that debate has already been had actually: TSMC said it COULD be done, as long as that got the subsidies they have been given.

Now, having agreed a price and been paid, suddenly it's impossible? Then TSMC should refund all the money, eat their losses and not be eligible to bid again. That's how deals work: your paid and you deliver. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too...

> TSMC should refund all the money, eat their losses and not be eligible to bid again. That's how deals work

Have you been involved with a public-private partnership?

It looks like TSMC put their fab in a stupid place. Particularly if that is the reason the plant is failing. (Which I continue to doubt.) Otherwise, the deal was a bet. If the heft fails, nobody wins.

I have: people bid way under and don't bother doing their research. Then when they win the "contract" start renegotiating. "We will build a fab if you give us 1bnUSD and 50 work permits" rapidly becomes we might build half a fab if you give us 100bnUSD and 5000 work permits".

I'm all for getting it done. But if want to just buy TSMC and move it to phoenix then we should do that. Let's not pay the same price for both project...

Perhaps subsidies for on-the-job training would solve this

TSMC would not have opened this plant in the first place without US political pressure. to force them to come set up shop and then mock them for it is quite the microcosm of American arrogance

No one is mocking anyone.

And they have not been pressured, they've been bribed. If you're paid fair and square to do something. If you're paid to do something, you should do it. Not cry that the price you agreed is not enough...

Seems to me TSMC is just trying to avoid a unionized labor force, which they were aware of before taking the deal. Having worked in various industries all over the US in large and complex manufacturing processes, there are many challenges in operating a unionized business. Lack of work ethics is definitely not one of challenges though.

Interesting negotiating tactic. Can you imagine trying to open a factory in Mexico, and your bargaining position is that Mexicans are too dumb and lazy to staff this factory?

The very fact that we don't take that as an insult, but rather as an opportunity for self-reflection, says a lot about Americans.

Saying that America doesn’t possess skilled enough workers seems extremely dubious. I would not be surprised if their hiring practices somehow are self-selective towards more Asian work cultures and they obstinately refuse to tailor it to American work culture.

I experience this frequently working with Asian companies. There doesn’t seem to be an understanding of the value of coaching or planning. There is a strong desire to set out minimal business requirements verbally to the lowest skilled and cheapest engineers and a desire or willingness to treat engineering like an LLM.

Iterate. Yell about the results. Fire people, save face, do it again. Complain about the poor quality. Do it again until you get a barely usable product.

Like an LLM that works for solving particular problems but it is not general intelligence.

It’s incredibly dystopian that these corporations have come to expect unquestioning obedience from workers no matter the working conditions.

That's the normal state of things when workers depend on employment for survival, as in 19th century Britain/US.

The interesting question to me is, despite now having a high GDP/capita and moderate income inequality, why haven't Taiwanese workers used their power to shift the balance toward a lighter workload, as Western Europe and even the US have?

https://archive.is/pqFti

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