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Comment by tristor | Hacker News Reader

I've known several people who went through Job Corps, got back to our home town, and then went right back to being lumps on a log. One person I know made their "living" scamming government benefits after going through Job Corps, and never worked in the industry they were trained in. The saddest part is all of them would have made many times more income just working in the field they were trained in /and/ the jobs were available, but a large number of people simply don't want to "work" (ironically, since they sometimes invest more effort for less return to scam than doing a real job).

I don't know what to do about the sociopsychological issues that plague the lower class in this country, and it really rarely has anything to do with a skills gap (skills are easily obtainable for those who want to obtain them).

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>but a large number of people simply don't want to "work" (ironically, since they sometimes invest more effort for less return to scam than doing a real job).

As you point out, it's also not about the effort. It's also not just the lower class that is effected. It's a problem at all socioeconomic levels. it's just much easier to hide it the more money you make.

It has nothing to do with not wanting to work. It's about not being healthy.

We do not optimize for health in this country. We optimize for profit making. It's not surprising we are massively unhealthy. What is perhaps surprising is that we're so stuck to the idea that profit making is the most important thing to optimize for, instead of individual health.

> It's about not being healthy.

This resonates with the people I know. The person I'm thinking of that does the most scamming is also massively overweight, sedentary, and spends every waking moment they aren't scamming playing video games. I think they have some sort of serious mental health issues which are untreated, and likely they don't acknowledge or recognize these issues (it's never been a topic of discussion though, so I can't say for sure).

That's part of why I think this is psychosocial, it's absolutely an issue of mental health and physical health issues combining to create a significant proportion of society that is incapable of taking accountability and has no desire to do anything meaningful or beneficial in their life, they're just wasting away like lumps on a log, even when given opportunities.

> What is perhaps surprising is that we're so stuck to the idea that profit making is the most important thing to optimize for, instead of individual health.

What makes this surprising to you?

We've forsaken all pretense of moral fiber, we worship entertainment and self-fulfillment at the expense of everything else. And I say "we" in the "What does the general culture edify and promote"—obviously not everyone lives this way. But enough do that it's really unsurprising to me that we worship profits. After all, if I can get mine and live an easy life—why should I care that your life is hard? (I think the answer is that there has to be a higher calling than simply living for yourself, but in our individualistic society good luck pitching that to the masses.)

I would say that we are stuck in a lie that other people don't matter. We are stuck in the lie that the wellbeing of other people does not affect us.

People have been writing comments eerily similar to yours for hundreds, maybe thousands of years. Are we getting something useful out of them?

Have we collectively started to listen?

Do you think the strategy of telling millions of people "I don't like your behavior!" is bound to finally start bearing fruit?

Where did you get the idea that’s what I’m saying? I didn’t say that or intend to imply it.

> a large number of people simply don't want to "work"

Nothing wrong with this. If I didn’t have to work for money and health insurance, I wouldn’t. Have simply never had any desired to “work” in my entire life.

I don't think it should be necessary for a person to "work", however every human being should find some productive and meaningful activity that helps their family and community, whether that's "work" or something else. Humans are a social species and we are not designed to wallow in our own selfishness devoid of any responsibilities or meaning. Humans derive pleasure from doing things that benefit others and seeing the results of that effort, whether that qualifies as "work" or not.

It is not required to have a capitalistic mindset to understand the inherent value of "work" apart from the reality of scarcity.

I disagree with your whole comment.

You’re painting humans with a pretty broad brush and it’s the kind of thing religions were designed for. Force people into thinking the One True Way that they have to do something to find meaning, when meaning really comes from within.

Why would anybody listen to someone else on this? (the irony is not lost on me here). We get one life and it’s up to everyone to decide for themselves the “right” way to spend it.

Physical and mental work is good for the mind and the spirit. Without the two, a person starts to decay. I think a ton of people who never did a days physical work in their life would benefit greatly if they were put to work, so they could know at least what it is. It's like the gym. Our gut reaction is to avoid it, but it makes you feel great physically and mentally, clears away some fog.

> Physical and mental work is good for the mind and the spirit.

I agree that this can be true, but lack of physical work and lack of mental work can also be good for the spirit.

Your spirit isn’t the same as everybody else’s.

> Without the two, a person starts to decay

You might start to decay, but you’re not everybody.

> I think a ton of people who never did a days physical work in their life would benefit greatly if they were put to work,

And I think a ton of people who overvalue a days physical work should be made to sit quietly, do nothing, and chill the heck out.

Your gut reaction is to avoid it but but it makes you feel great physically and mentally, clears away some fog.

People aren't different when it comes to these things. Eating healthy is beneficial for every single individual. Physical exercise is beneficial for every single individual. The same goes for the mental and spiritual side of things: exercise is beneficial and nobody is an exception.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't rest our body and our soul.

Is it physical exercise that’s beneficial for everyone or a physical day’s work?

I do not believe that a physical day’s work is needed for everyone and that most people who believe it’s necessary for themselves believe it because they don’t know and can’t imagine anything else.

The idea that people need to work is just boring and unimaginative to me.

> I do not believe that a physical day’s work is needed for everyone and that most people who believe it’s necessary for themselves believe it because they don’t know and can’t imagine anything else.

If somebody has never had a physical day's work in their life, they are incompletely developed. "Unimaginative" you say, when there are thousands upon thousands of things you can do within the category physical work.

I'm from a place where there are a huge percentage of the population who have never done a day's work. From childhood to school to universities to office jobs. These people might be successful in measurements of wealth and income, but they also become stunted in many aspects of life. Just as somebody who never learns to write or read.

Why should they? For what reason? If they do nothing productive and meaningful, don't hurt anyone, and don't desire to change, what is the reason they should change?

"They should change because they will likely feel pleasure from it" does not seem like a sufficient reason, there are lots of things people will likely feel pleasure from that I wouldn't say they "should" do.

I don't think work has inherent value apart from the reality of scarcity that can't be fulfilled by things other than work.

I don’t want to try to convince you otherwise so lets talk about reality. Due to the reality of scarcity, those who do no work and expect that they will be cared for do in fact harm others.

Scamming government benefits and failing to contribute to society when you are entirely able is not just selfish, it directly damages society and harms those with legitimate needs as well.

> Why should they? For what reason? If they do nothing productive and meaningful, don't hurt anyone, and don't desire to change, what is the reason they should change?

As long as scarcity is real, the idea that you are owed an existence without work is beyond selfish and entitled, it is directly harmful. They /are/ hurting others.

Scarcity exists but it isn’t real. It’s created by people to convince each other that we need to keep working.

There are enough empty houses and apartments to house everyone, but there’s a bunch of people in a tent around the corner from my apartment. Food waste is astounding but people still go hungry.

The fact you believe this tells me you have a loose association with reality. There’s really nothing more to discuss. Food doesn’t appear on tables via magic, somebody gets their hands dirty.

Commies aren’t known for their sensibilities, so I remain unsurprised.

The wages are too low. Without assistance, they'd probably commit suicide, so you're logic is based on a false binary. A job that doesn't earn a base level of dignity is not necessarily worth living for, so people give up. It's very simple.

Which jobs are there that don't earn a base level of dignity?

Lower-end service work in large, expensive cities.

You aren't treated with dignity by the customers, by your boss, or by the size of your paychecks.

And where in Job Corps does it train you for lower-end service work in large, expensive cities? Most of the people going to Job Corps are not from large, expensive cities, and none of their centers are in large, expensive cities. The work they're training for is skilled blue collar work, all of which pays relatively decently and is not "low-end service work".

I was responding in a larger scope of jobs than what are offered in the JC program. I can't find much to grouse about its curriculum.

I will say that it's a damn shame that it's not available for someone like a 40-year old who wants to get their life on track.

Yeah, it’s not just expensive cities. They don’t pay well in rural communities either.

I don't know what you're on about. Job Corps teaches job skills that are very well paid, one of the people I know was trained as a welder, another as a machinist, and one in IT. Someone with a CCNA starts at around $60k/yr in my home town and can make more in bigger metros, and if they continue learning can be easily earning $100k/yr+. Welders make $30+/hr, more in large metros, which is also roughly $60k/yr. Machinists make around $22/hr starting out and can easily make $30+/hr with experience or in larger metro areas.

You can go "the wages are too low" all you want, but coming from a dead-end shit town, with minimal life prospects and dropping out of high school to having a GED and training with certifications in a field that pays above the median single-earner income nationally is a pretty good deal. I think Job Corps is a good program, I also think a lot of people who go into Job Corps are doing it as a last-ditch effort but don't actually have any desire to take responsibility for themselves or actually work.

Every single job that Job Corps trains for pays a fair wage in most markets. While it'll likely never make you rich, it is certainly well into the "base level of dignity" territory. Clearly the people I know aren't tempted to commit suicide, they're still investing as much time as they can when they're not wasting their life away playing World of Warcraft to scam government benefits, so.

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