Comment by haswell | Hacker News Reader

Comment by haswell | Hacker News Reader

Why we sleep. This book motivated me to change my sleep habits after decades of being a night owl. I’m starting to love early mornings, and I feel so much better. This was a hard change.

How to do nothing. About resisting the attention economy and reorienting one’s relationship with technology and the environment. A very thought provoking and timely read, especially while I’m on sabbatical.

Flow. Explores the psychology of optimal experience, and again has been rather applicable while I’m on sabbatical trying to recover from burnout. It explores the flow state: how people achieve it, why it’s so enjoyable, and shifting towards a mindset that seeks to find flow in everyday moments.

Learned Optimism. Explores the original research that revealed the concept of Learned Helplessness, provides tools to assess one’s own level of optimism/pessimism (this was…revealing), and makes a strong case for replacing certain pessimistic defaults through simple retraining exercises. Really helpful if you grew up in an environment that hammered pessimism into your core. Has been life changing.

Caveat: I would not recommend Why We Sleep for anyone suffering from insomnia.

When I was dealing with sleep issues I tried reading it, hoping I'd learn something useful. But the book just kept hammering home how badly it screws you if you're not getting enough sleep. As I was trying all the recommended steps (good sleep hygiene, CBT, exercise, did an overnight sleep study, etc.) with only modest results, this basically just fueled my anxiety -- which is itself a known trigger for insomnia.

Walker agrees with you! He has said[1] he's going to add a cautionary note at the beginning of the book in a future version to warn people of the risk.

[1]: https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-...

I also have dealt with sleep issues. A few notes in case anyone is the same and looking for ideas.

The thing that had the biggest effect for me is eliminating caffeine. It has a pretty long half life and I believe I metabolize it slower than the average person. Most sources say it is ok to consume it in the morning, but in my case even morning consumption was enough to significantly disrupt my sleep. When I got to the point that even a can of coke was stimulating, I observed a complete cessation of night time restlessness.

The other thing that helped reliably, although to a lesser degree, was getting ~15 minutes of natural sunlight in the morning. In terms of supplements, a combination of lemon balm (mildly increases gaba) and agmatine sulfate (mild nmda antagonism) occasionally helps. I try to use supplements as a last resort, as I try to fix the issues upstream.

I think this speaks to the complexity of our bodies, something you do in the morning can have a significant effect in how you feel at night. It is also wild how our culture normalizes things that go against the healthy functioning of our bodies. I know many people who only get sunlight walking to their car. The human body is amazingly complex, there is certainly much more for us to understand.

This is very similar to my experience.

I didn’t fully eliminate caffeine, but stopped drinking it after 9AM and reduced my intake by about 50%. I’d suffered from insomnia for years, and underestimated the impact of midday coffee.

I’ve also started going up to my building’s roof or taking morning walks to get sunlight. This works even on cloudy days (increase the time outside to more like 30 mins), and it does seem to help.

I’ve also started a no-screens wind down period about 1.5 hours before bed. This was a tough change too, but I’ve replaced it with books or spending some time at the piano.

I looked at sleep as a frustrating necessity that mostly got in my way. Starting to treat it more like an important ritual has been really helpful. This didn’t come naturally, and it took some time to shift to this mindset.

> this basically just fueled my anxiety

As per CBT, you fuel your own anxiety. This book is not empowered the ability to fuel people's anxiety. It is more easily exacerbated when we are sleep deprived, but ultimately you have to address it as just about any abrasive information then can equally kick off insomnia.

I think the book did lean too heavily on proselytizing that insufficient sleep is not healthy, and not heavily enough on advice, but it was mostly decent. One thing Huberman mentions in his podcast that is typically understated is the impact of sunlight (get some in the morning/day, limit blue light at night). In the main, though, being solid with the head game and limiting total time in bed to 8h strengthen sleep pressure / adenosine will do most of the work. But conditioning is such that it can take time to recover in a sustainable way.

There is some good content in the book, but beware that Matthew Walker is a bit of an intellectual fraudster https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2020/03/24/why-we-sle...

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/sbcmACvB6DqYXYidL/counter-th...

Cannot agree more about Why we sleep. I thought feeling tired and low energy was really the natural state of my body until I was recommended this read. As stated, this is not a trivial change but I believe the author does a great job in infusing a (correct imo) sense of urgency on the lack of attention to sleep in the modern times.

> How to do nothing

The original article was fantastic and I kept coming back to it. The book was unreadable. After a hundred pages of academic own-fart-smelling, I had to put it down.

https://medium.com/@the_jennitaur/how-to-do-nothing-57e100f5...

Speaking only for myself, I did find this to be a “preaching to the choir” type of book - probably not something that’s going to change the minds of a skeptic - but still had enough nuggets of value to be worth a read. It’s directed at Silicon Valley. It levels some accusations that are a bit hard to swallow. But probably necessary.

She admits very early on that it’s kind of a meandering exploration of ideas, so I came in not expecting some masterpiece and instead found it to be a collection of thoughts worth considering.

It does require some trudging through a bit of preaching, but at the same time, if one takes seriously the crises that are likely around the corner, I don’t think these objections hold water given the broader context.

To each their own, though, and I can understand why the book would rub some people the wrong way. But that’s why I found it worth reading.

+1 Exactly the same for me.

Obligatory critique about Why We Sleep, in case you haven't seen it.

https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/

Guzey updated changed his mind on this topic: https://guzey.com/2022-lessons/#get-minimum-possible-sustain...

It's unfortunate that he hasn't added a disclaimer to the original post since it is shared so widely.

EDIT: fixing autocorrect

Wow it’s crazy how he didn’t add a disclaimer to his original post.

EDIT: Did he really change his mind? Still seems like he thinks that book is pseudoscience, just that sleep is more important than he originally gave it credit for.

I think he changed this perspective on sleep as a whole, but the factual errors in Matt Walker’s book remains there.

In fairness, you should probably also link Walker's response to Guzey and others.

Some of the criticism he rebuts and some he accepts and says he will deal with it in a future version of the book.

Would happily have done so, but didn't know that it existed. Is this what you're thinking of?

https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-...

obligatory counter https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/sbcmACvB6DqYXYidL/counter-th...

Matt walker appeared on the Huberman Lab podcast and it’s definitely worth a lid if you like the book.

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