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Comment by msluyter | Hacker News Reader

Random story.

I used to have a pretty intense phobia about returning things, and 90% of the time I'd opt to just eat the cost rather than doing so.

When we had our first child, we bought this automatic rocker/chair thing. I got it out of the box and put it together -- it had these locking joints where like a spring pin would pop into internal slot, such that once put together it was impossible to disassemble.

Once I'd finished, I put our daughter in it, and when turned on, one part rubbed against part of the structure, making an annoying clicking sound. My wife, half mad from lack of sleep, took one look/listen and told me to get it out of the house. (In much more colorful language).

Just then, our daughter, who was still in the chair, who was wearing diapers a size too small because we'd run out of her normal size, pooped. We quickly got her out but there was a quarter size stain on the fabric. We cleaned that as best we could, but it was still visible.

I collected the pieces, which no longer fit in the box because you couldn't fully take it apart, put as much in the box as I could, and took it back to the store. As I stood in line for the return with this overstuffed box with various rods & parts sticking out all askew, I kept replaying horror scenarios in my mind. Like the clerk taking it out of the box and shouting in front of everyone "YOU CAN'T RETURN THIS, YOU MONSTER, IT HAS POOP ON IT!"

The clerk barely glanced at the box. I'm no longer afraid of returning things.

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As a European living in the US it took me many years to adjust to the return system in here.

In "Europe" (I'm super generalizing here), to return a product, it has to be in pristine condition, you have to the original receipt and even then they will go over it like you are smuggling drugs into the country. In US, nobody cares. This is built into the business model. You pay higher prices due to returns, but then you buy more stuff because you don't worry about returns.

When I first moved to the US, I was extremely careful with money (didn't have any). So every purchase was carefully planned and I worried about it long after it was done. Then I made a mistake and bought pair of shoes. They were uncomfortable. I felt like an idiot. But I already wore them, so now I am stuck. I told my colleague about it and he looked perplexed.

After bunch of back and forth he decided to teach me a lesson. He took me a to a grocery store. Bought a can of corn. We walked out, he opened the can, dumped half of it in a trash can. We walked back to the return counter. My heart was pumping so hard I was losing sight at moments. He put it down on the counter and said: I would like to be refunded. I thought the clerk is going to smack him silly and me with him. But he didn't even flinch. Gave him few coins and we were on the way.

This was 18 years ago. I since very well adjusted to the system, maybe a little bit too well.

True, and it makes business sense in a rich country. But just like in parenting, this kind of experience and expectation can yield entitled personalities, which is indeed a common stereotype of Americans abroad. Or see American students' attitudes towards their university. They also approach it with the same customer attitude, and fair enough, they do have to pay hefty sums.

I think that’s the crux of the point. Americans are trained to be demanding customers. Whatever is then packaged as a product/service for purchase, will be treated equally.

As you pointed out, students pay a lot of money for their education in US. Shouldn’t they have a say in it? If that’s not good for the society, maybe it shouldn’t be sold as a product in the first place.

I leads quite far away. Americans are demanding customers which makes the service and products better in a way. But people are similarly also litigious, so everything a bit higher stakes will be ridiculously expensive. If little Timmy breaks a leg while with daycare corporation, the parents are likely to sue, because Healthcare is also a business etc etc. It all has its reason, it's just a whole different system and lifestyle and concerns than elsewhere (not to mention the whole thing around tips in certain service sectors).

So while for me American students seem entitled, they'd see it as standing up for themselves.

In Europe, where education is state subsidized, students are not customers, it's their responsibility to study well, as it is they who are being paid. "I'm a paying customer so you better give me good grades" just doesn't fly in that case.

Heh, that euro approach to education can create a real nightmare for Europeans moving to North America.

US: “we require transcripts sent directly from the university”

Euro university: “no, we don’t have a portal for students to request transcripts and mail them to any address they request. It’s the student’s responsibility to keep a copy of their own transcripts each year.

[9 calls/emails later] If you reallyyyyyy need us to do something for you, fiiiiiine, you can pickup a copy at this office (except during summer). If you’re overseas, send a friend to pick it up, what’s the problem? What do you mean nobody but us can touch it and you can’t just send it to them yourself?

Why are you being so difficult about this? This is way more than anybody else ever requires from us”

I've never heard about such a concept. Do American universities offer that as a button click online? Do you mean transcripts to apply to grad school, or jobs in companies?

Getting the university to mail something in my name to somewhere, for my own purposes seems nonsense from my European view. Like what do they have to do with a third party?

Of course they will certify and stamp any documents that state objective facts about my studies (during opening hours, after waiting through a long queue). And probably if you explain the things and it sounds important like you git accepted at

That said, things do differ between countries. In Hungary most universities switched from physical booklets where the profs had to physically sign each grade they gave, to an online system about 15 years ago. So no need to collect copies physically now.

In Germany, universities vary in their practices but you can at least print out a proof of enrollment yourself which includes a verification code that third parties can check.

But I think it's possible to get such things done in the end but it will need a lot of explanations and appearing in person.

In 2012, I ordered my transcripts from my university (from the 90s) and they sent me a copy. I didn't ask them to send it anywhere else. I was expecting a fee, but there wasn't any (perhaps just because I was sending it to myself?). There was no portal to click, but I emailed in, and had a back and forth email with someone, then got it in the mail a couple weeks later.

It was surprising to me too when I encountered it, but yes, at least at my college, in the rare instance that you needed an "Official Transcript", you filled out a form on a portal that included the address for it to be sent to. I think we got three for free and then they were like $15 a pop or something. I have no idea why they did this and did not just stamp/seal it and expect me to mail it myself.

The goal is to prevent fraud. They don't want people passing fake transcripts.

What if you also fake the envelope and pretend that the sender is the university?

> Getting the university to mail something in my name to somewhere, for my own purposes seems nonsense from my European view. Like what do they have to do with a third party?

They’re a business and it’s a useful service.

Good example for the above comments on how certain business practices can make people have expectations that can be interpreted as entitled

I get it. Trying to highlight the difference in attitude. Almost all universities in Europe are public universities (state owned) so they are not seen as businesses and we don't consider them service providers in that sense.

> Do American universities offer that as a button click online? ... transcripts to apply to grad school, or jobs in companies?

I believe yes, usually. You pay a small fee, like $25, for the service, of course. With some schools you may have to do it over the phone and/or mail a cheque.

The official transcript would be needed for further study like grad school, or for transferring credit if you transfer schools. I've personally never had a company ask to verify my degree or grades, though I suppose if I was a new grad from a prestigious school applying to a big-name firm, they might check. (I think there is a commercial service most schools use for this, which confirms basic things like graduation date and degree.)

The rules are because the school assumes that if it didn't come directly from the other school, that you could have altered it. Although I've also heard of schools providing sealed, tamper-evident, embossed envelopes to the students, and as long as you don't open that inner envelope it would be accepted as authentic by the other school. They refer to these as "official transcript" and the kind that are unsealed are called "unofficial transcript."

> print out a proof of enrollment yourself which includes a verification code that third parties can check.

This would be the "modern" way of doing such a thing, assuming you have at least say, 2000-era technology, but the way they have it set up is a custom that started probably 50+ years ago and to my knowledge no colleges have yet gotten together to establish a standard, so that they would be able to accept them from each other and verify them.

> The official transcript would be needed for further study like grad school, or for transferring credit if you transfer schools.

Also for applying for professional licenses. Some government fields that pay more if you have a Masters or whatever may want verification, especially if you're one of the non-locals.

> But just like in parenting, this kind of experience and expectation can yield entitled personalities, which is indeed a common stereotype of Americans abroad. Or see American students' attitudes towards their university. They also approach it with the same customer attitude, and fair enough, they do have to pay hefty sums.

"The customer is always right" is more true in America than Europe.

First time I've seen someone saying that Americans have better taste than Europeans (j/k)

No need for "j/k" here. The original quote was something to the effect of "The customer is always right in matters of taste." It wasn't intended as a dictum to bend over backward to the breaking point and beyond in the name of "customer service."

Do you have a source for this? I often see people make this claim but can't find evidence that it was originally meant in the more limited sense.

Well, I think my tastes are better than everyone’s. That’s why they’re my tastes.

But I actually have no idea what you’re saying. Have you heard the phrase “the customer is always right?” Im saying that attitude is more strongly held in the US.

I was referencing the phrase, "the customer is always right in matters of taste"

That's precisely my point. There's a lot of upsides to that. It's often much smoother to get stuff done in the US. People want to solve issues and don't sweat the small stuff.

To be more concrete than just Europe, if you take Germany, things tend to be more rigid and set in stone. But it's also changing with more experience interacting with American companies through globalization. And Eastern Europe is way worse than Western Europe which itself is behind the US. In the East you as a customer are made to feel small and the customer reps just want to get rid of you. It's probably a holdover from communism where stores and everything was state-owned so there was no profit motive to be nicer. It has lasting impact even down the generations, though more travel and foreign experiences are starting to change that too.

I had a friend at a German company in the US that said a lot of their operational problems weren’t shared by the headquarters in Germany because in Germany they had more power to tell people “too bad, you’re just going to have to wait.”

Pros and cons I guess, but im not even trying to say one is better than the other. Just that the dynamic is real.

Not for long — more and more of our returns are going to a small number of retailers and they are all talking to each other anyway (via third party return companies). Some folks are already banned from returning from one big box store (and as a result, other big box stores). Expect this to expand to smaller shops soon!

> American students' attitudes towards their university. They also approach it with the same customer attitude, and fair enough, they do have to pay hefty sums.

For decades, spendthrift universities - including public universities[1] - have been selling their students into debt servitude, drastically expanding administrative payroll and exorbitant construction projects while simultaneously shifting teaching duties onto poorly paid adjuncts.

It would be nice if students could change the system, but they seem to have little say in the matter since university degrees are required for most jobs. Grad students are unionizing at least, but this is unlikely to decrease tuition, or costs for undergraduates.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37129359

you don't even need to go to the same store. Take any hammer to HomeDepot and, at the very worst, you walk away with store credit to buy a new hammer.

> In "Europe" (I'm super generalizing here), to return a product, it has to be in pristine condition, you have to the original receipt and even then they will go over it like you are smuggling drugs into the country. In US, nobody cares. This is built into the business model. You pay higher prices due to returns, but then you buy more stuff because you don't worry about returns.

Sounds about like the experience of trying to return anything to a Marshall's store in the US. I tried it once. I was attempting to return a defective water bottle (the seal on the top leaked). They say it has to be in the original packaging and unused. Well, how in the actual fuck am I supposed to determine if the seal is defective or not without "using" it?

SMH

Yeah, most US stores have generous return policies but this is not at all universal. Some stores have strict terms (must have original receipt, must be unopened, and returned within a 30-day windows), or sometimes the employee working the service desk had a bad day and decides to take it out on you.

I know that I tend to shop at stores that aren't going to challenge me when I need to return things.

If a store did that to me, I would dispute the credit card charge. It's a defective product.

This is part of why it works

In most European countries you are allowed to return defective products without the original packaging and used. You just can't return items that way only because you didn't like them.

In Spain, you can return things that you didn't buy in person (eg online, on a catalogue or via phone) within 14 days of receiving it for any reason whatsoever, as long as it's still in good condition.

I believe this has been EU wide rule for a while.

That's EU+UK wide, though there are reasonable exceptions like food & personalised (e.g. engraved or embroidered) goods.

It used to be like this in the US too. I’m still uncomfortable returning things because that’s how it was when I grew up. Walmart and e-commerce are when this all changed.

At my first job, our office manager was a really nice Indian woman. She told the story of bringing her father over for a visit from India in the late 80's. He brought a suitcase with him that he had purchased at Macy's at Herald Square (Manhattan) sometime in the 40's and the lock had broken. He insisted that she take him there to get it fixed because "it has a lifetime warranty and I'm not dead yet."

No amount of arguing would get him to stop so she gave up and drove the hour or so into NYC and went into Macy's expecting to be extremely embarrassed at trying to get a beat up old suitcase fixed. Instead, they basically got the white glove treatment. Macy's couldn't fix the lock, but replaced the 40-year-old suitcase with something that was similar, treated them to lunch at the store restaurant, the manager took a photo with her Dad, etc. He, of course, was thrilled to death by all the attention.

They were a pretty well-off family, so I expect that it was probably an expensive piece of luggage when new, but even so I was amazed by the story.

Brilliant Porsche add on the topic

https://youtu.be/R8-9oIq1hxw

Nice. BTW, musical score sounds like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taste_of_Honey_(song)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_KDPUTyDyQ

Good ear!

It is indeed amazing how you can order nearly any single old part at a Porsche center: if you've got the PET catalog reference, even better. And the people at the counter there for "new old" parts do know their job: you explain them which part you need, the number you think it is, and more often then not they'll find it in no time, warn you about this or that similar but not identical part, that other part you'll then need too, how complicated the replacement procedure is, etc.

Now for some stuff and in case bootleg ones exist, you better buy the bootleg part for it's going to be much cheaper.

Or eBay, parts from crashed cars (you often see a photo of the "donor", crashed, car). Had the "roof console" going cuckoo before I got the extended manufacturer warranty so it was on me (and they wouldn't sell me the warranty unless I fixed it)... Turns out the roof console depends on which extra the car has (like "homelink" to open your garage door or not, the color of the interior, etc.). So it's a part that has to be made specifically for your car: Porsche quoted me something like 765 EUR for the part + one hour of work + VAT (something silly like 1100 EUR altogether). I found a nearly identical part on eBay for... 48 EUR and installed it myself in literally 5 minutes. 48 EUR vs 1100 EUR.

Also some people on forums are very good at finding which company is manufacturing that one very identical part for Porsche, but without the Porsche logo on it: gonna be way cheaper too and it's literally the same part. One example would be a Porsche battery charger which is just a CTEK charger with the CTEK logo replace by a Porsche one and sold 2x the price (not the best example as better example would be actual car parts but you get the idea).

They're pretty good with their previous model. You can upgrade/improve nearly everything from an original 911 which is incredible... or rebuild it from the ground up. Now that's why a car from 1980 cost is not far from a new one. And that they're investment.

Thank Santa? :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwck_UHXQWg

Am I the only one who thinks this is a disgusting attitude?

You're not alone. Just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should. We waste at our own peril.

Sort of, but it also feels disgusting to be treated like a crook when you're making an innocent return, so there are tradeoffs.

What's disgusting about it?

The enormous waste? I do find it concerning. There are plenty of "we do it because we can" types and encouraging such behaviour would only make things worse.

I am not against returns, of course. But abusing these systems annoys and saddens me.

Wasting one little can of corn to make a point is not "enormous" by my scale.

This thread is about this one can of corn? Talk about dishonest

I wrote in the context of that comment. If you had some other meaning you need to express it.

> You pay higher prices due to returns

Do you?

I remember when I was a cash-strapped student in France ordering photo gear from the US (Adorama or B&H) because the price + international shipping + customs + vat (the last two being applied on top of the shipping) + UPS's fees for handling customs was cheaper than buying from Europe.

You know what the kicker was? It was a tripod made in Italy.

It said "made in Italy" on it, not just an Italian brand manufactured in China. This was generally true for "regular" photo equipment (made in Japan), too.

I haven't checked the prices recently, though.

You pay higher prices than you would otherwise, not higher prices overall necessarily.

Yeah, they're obviously never seen what other countries pay for the same products. I know here in New Zealand, especially anything tech has a "NZ tax" added, not a govt tax, just a saying here, meaning the price of living in NZ. It's not uncommon for things to be double the price here compared to buying in the US and shipping here (accounting for all fees).

Recent example buying a Ubiquiti UniFi Lite 8-Port switch from B&H shipped to NZ, all fee's accounted for is $138NZD (82USD) cheaper then buying it local.

Someone is making bank somewhere in the supply chain.

People often say, well you live on an island in the middle of nowhere, that's the price you pay. But that doesn't check out if a company in the US can ship a single (not on sale, at RRP) item for way less. How can a wholesalers in NZ, who bulk ships it's here at wholesale rate, and cheap (bulk) shipping rate, then end up with a price so much higher at retail.

Having extensively suffered the NZ tax before moving across the ditch - but still suffering a lesser version of it here - I suspect it's a question of scale for packaging and distribution.

That switch is probably a relatively niche item when compared to some generic TP-Link switch, and AU & NZ are basically the only countries to use the Type I plug. That means the production run for that switch is tiny - it's probably not even a full days run, which means the economy of sale is reduced.

On top of that, the middle man is probably distributing a tiny amount of these to each store, so they can't just pull out pallets from the shipping container and put them on a truck, individual items probably need to be pulled out and re-packaged. All this adds cost.

Yes, at least in the UK, Amazon is frequently slightly more expensive than elsewhere, but often I'll knowingly pay the small premium because of the known easy, free, returns.

No EU 2y warranty though. Was the price difference significant?

I can't remember correctly, but it was around 100 € I'd say

This was a tripod, basically 3 sticks hinged together. I could've lived without the warranty.

But IME if they ship it to Europe, then it will come with an "international warranty", so I think the manufacturer is supposed to honor the warranty here, too. My tripod and head had that warranty, but I never needed to use it. I also bought another item from there, a bit more "electronical", probably a lens, but I can't quite remember. It also came with an international warranty card.

There are many items which they won't ship, though, mostly cameras.

With high return rate and higher purchasing power, I don't know why some imported products like TV and GPU in the US are significantly cheaper than other countries (even without tax).

I did the opposite move, North America to Europe.

It’s quite an adjustment. It feels like companies here are the complete opposite: you should feel lucky they’re allowing you to give them your money. Not happy with it? Fuck right off. We made a mistake? Too bad so sad.

I feel like there should be a middle ground between return everything and return nothing, but I am regularly appalled at the contempt with which companies in Europe treat their customers.

And before you tell me I’m wrong: this is a generalization, I’m sure $anecdote will prove me wrong, my point still stands.

We had a Costco couch that fell apart after a few months. I wanted to Craigslist it, but my wife wanted to return it. I carried it and the biggest load of shame I’ve ever felt in to the customer service counter and apologized profusely to the guy working there. He shrugged and said “man, it happens all the time, no problem. You wouldn’t believe the kind of stuff people return.”

Another Costco employee told me that they go by the 51% rule: if you have 51% of an item, they’ll take it back, even if it’s the bones and packaging from a two-month-old rotisserie chicken that you say you didn’t like.

No couch should be falling apart after so little time. You shouldn't feel guilty when it's a legitimate unhappy customer situation.

Your money sure as hell didn't fall apart after a few months of their receiving it. Except maybe if you paid in BTC.

My sister in high school worked at a cosmetics counter at the Mall of America for Estee Lauder. They had the same rule which was even more generous. You could use virtually any of their makeup stuff and as long as their was 10% still in the bottle they would take it back and refund full price.

She said they had a few girls and older women who knew this and would return stuff all the time. She asked her manager if they could blacklist them because it was obvious they were abusing the return policy.

The manager's response? "Its above my pay grade. I'll keep returning their stuff until someone at corporate tells me otherwise."

I had a co-worker who moved into an apartment in the area and bought all of his furniture and appliances at Costco. A year or two later, he took a job in another state and instead of moving all of his stuff across the country or hawking it on facebook, he just returned it all to Costco.

It's certainly not what I would have done but he said they took it all back, no questions asked.

I've heard of real estate agents staging entire homes with various goods from Costco (furniture, TVs, etc) and then simply returning it when the open house is over.

I'd heard similar stories of customers buying goods they knew they only needed temporally that they simply returned afterwards and obtained a full refund for. It does surprise me a little that stores don't have mechanisms in place to prevent this being abused, it's hard to see how it couldn't be a significant financial drain for them. FWIW "no questions asked returns" aren't really a thing in Australia from what I've observed. But not having a receipt isn't usually an issue if they can find the payment on their system and it matches your CC# either.

A few weeks ago, a Costco manager made an exception to needing more than half the product for someone requesting a refund for an empty carton of blueberries.

I would have told them to pound sand. It is basically other Costco shoppers paying for fraudulent returns.

Yeah, and Costco has a mechanism for dealing with it because it it a club system. They can simply kick you out or temporarily suspend your membership. I returned open packages, but it was because the product was spoiled or I was not able to get ahold of manufacturers warranty department. Otherwise, it’s an abuse.

I have heard of people returning / exchanging Keurigs at Costco as soon as they use up all the sample pods... again, and again, and again.

To me as European that just feels like a theft ngl.

This sounds like the kind of abuse that led to changes in REI's returns policy. Back when you could return anything no questions asked for a full refund, people would e.g. buy a tent, sleeping bag, and stove, hike the Apallachian Trail, and then just return all the gear. Or buy one of REI's touring bikes, cycle one of the Trans-American routes, and then return the bike, etc.

I heard of people returning hiking boots after they were worn out. The funny thing is that REI would then sell the return at physical sale.

The return period is now one year.

I once bought a triplet set of luggage from costco that came packed inside each other nesting doll style.

Outer bag was pristine. Upon getting it home I opened it up to find the inner two bags had various scuff marks and baggage claim tags still attached.

Fair play, previous Costco customer. But I had expected a more thorough check of the product before the store returned it to the shelf for resale. It wasn't even marked as previously returned or preowned!

Fry's Electronics was the absolute worst about this. They would sometimes mark items on the shelf down if they were obviously returns, but more often than not they'd re-shrink wrap it and sell it as new. And more often than not whatever it was would be missing relevant important pieces so as to be useless. (This on top of the "we're going to search your bag on the way out of the store", which I would just glare my way out of.) I loved the idea of Fry's having what I wanted, but the actual experience was wretched.

My own transition was when I returned a few items in a row that were brazenly unfit for their intended purpose. A heater fan that had locked up and melted without a thermal cutoff kicking in, a palm sander whose handle got extremely hot, paint that didn't stick to a surface and beaded up. The clerk just didn't care about any reasons for returning or feedback. I had wanted to be asked questions because these items were clearly defective. But, no questions asked. Companies just really don't care about the details of what they're selling beyond the immediate bottom line.

Since then I've come to see the return window as an extended purchase decision. My stock of items sitting around is a local cache of things I might need, rather than having to delay a project for another shipping time or waste time running to the store and getting gouged. I'll even do things like buy a tool because it's on sale at a good price, then decide a few months later whether I really need it or not. Recently I've even been toying with the idea of skipping digging through piles of box store sheet goods - order some quantity much larger than what I need, have them load onto my trailer, go through at home at my own pace, and then bring back the rejects/unneeded and they can unload.

It's not how I'm wired - when I make decisions I generally want them to be settled. But I'm paying for that overhead anyway, and there's no honor on retailers' part - stocking busted up goods to begin with, playing games with sale prices and coupons, terrible packing jobs, etc. So whatever, they chose the rules and I just play them according to my own incentives.

I still can't fathom how the overall system adds up though. Intellectually I get it that if only 10% of items are returned and trashed, prices only need to go up 10% to compensate. But I don't understand how there aren't many more returns since that is the optimal strategy for taking advantage of sales/bundles/competition/etc. I can only think that most people are much more reluctant to have "spent money" outstanding in the short term, regardless of getting it back down the line.

They're better now but a few years ago, I actively avoided buying tools at Home Depot because they always just restocked broken returns and I got burned by it multiple times. I'm not sure why they would do this other than sheer laziness. They even asked why you were returning it. (Why ask if you don't care?)

On one particular trip, I returned some kind of complicated saw or jig or something because it was broken in a spot that I didn't see until after I brought it home. (It also had obvious signs of use, so I wasn't the first "owner" of it either.) After the return, I walked around the store to get some other items and then came back to the tool isle to get a replacement and was non-plussed to see that the exact item I returned 15 minutes ago had already been put back on the shelf, without a discount sticker or anything.

I feel like that was the period when stores were adopting the easy returns but hadn't really accepted the results of taking the loss, so employees had poor incentives to just stick it back out for resale.

Then again maybe they're still doing it with tools bought in store and then returned there. These days when I buy tools at HD they're generally ship to home. And when I return stuff in the store, they're often a different SKU so they get an RTV (return to vendor) tag rather than the store reselling them. Which given the return pallets I've seen for sale elsewhere (ie this article), I wonder if it isn't a euphemism for dispose of, even if the box is unopened.

I've also got to wonder about this from the angle of the financial arrangements. Part of me always wonders if all that inventory is even owned by Home Depot, or if the contractual arrangements make it closer to a consignment relationship where stuff that is declared as unsaleable (for whatever reason) is eaten by the vendor.

> I've also got to wonder about this from the angle of the financial arrangements. Part of me always wonders if all that inventory is even owned by Home Depot, or if the contractual arrangements make it closer to a consignment relationship where stuff that is declared as unsaleable (for whatever reason) is eaten by the vendor.

My understanding, which may not be the best, from a few years of working retail.

Most items for sale are actually owned by the big box company (retailer), but anything returned as defective is typically trashed and the big box company gets a credit from the manufacturer on their next purchase. So basically the manufacturer eats the cost, but it's also contingent on the retailer still buying their products.

> they get an RTV (return to vendor) tag rather than the store reselling them. Which given the return pallets I've seen for sale elsewhere (ie this article), I wonder if it isn't a euphemism for dispose of, even if the box is unopened.

I think return to vendors are shipped at the vendor's expense, so vendors tend to ship to nearby surplus processors for the most part.

I had an issue returning a macbook to a major electronics store chain within the 14 day right to return law (EU). The returns person and their manager said it wasn't possible to return it because after signing in with an Apple ID when you turn it on it gets "locked" to that ID or whatever. Fortunately there was another store in the city I had to travel to for appointment on the same day and they just took it back and gave me a refund. I hope the person there didn't get in trouble..

>within the 14 day right to return law (EU).

Eu too. My local, we get 30 days for an items bought online, so I tell the shops 'thanks for letting me look, I'll get it online just for the better returns policy'.

That’s why you also by your car online or over the phone (applies to EU/UK). Have the dealership mail/email the paperwork. They will ask you to come in because they know this is the case, but just stand your ground.

Then you have the right to return if you find any defects within 14/30 days.

If the store acquired it legitimately then they can get it unlocked by Apple. It's just some amount of extra work for them.

It’s activation lock. They can actually check if your removed it or not.

Been there - but it still sucks !!! as a commentary of our society - and our inability to make lasting things for long-term FEAR OF LOSING PROFIT.

Every first-world item made should have a 2nd/3rd world plan for it.

When your comfy butt is done with thing - you should be able/required to hand-down iten to next party, and you should be happy paying the premieum to use the item freshly new, as well as be happy that you cared for it such that the next person still gets an appreciated object.

THE LAST THING we need is for a primary buyer of [THING] to think the *next step* to their use is trash/landfill.

If you disagree with me, hand me the hammer that you have in the garage from your great grandfather and maybe then he can knock some sense into to.

> our inability to make lasting things for long-term FEAR OF LOSING PROFIT.

I agree that’s part of the problem, but even if that weren’t an issue you’d still have the (IMO) much bigger problem of most consumers preferring whatever product is cheapest.

This is why thos who make plastic products shoul be held to greater account...

Wht saddens me, and I seem to see lit. nobodoy talking about is our glamourisizing 3d plastics printing of billions of arbitrary objects - and where these plastics will end up in the ecos...

3d printers (I have an ender3) should be urged to have a recycling platform.

Personally - I want a 3d recycling machine which will shred HDPE, melt it to pellets and make a filiment extrusion for the 3d printer.

We should have the 3d printing community building recycling stations from 3d filiment and object fails etc... and try to close the loop as much as possible.

(lookng at you cosplayers of microplastic contamination for internet points)

You can build or buy a filament recycling machine.

The issue is that it costs more than a 3D printer, and often times the filament is not as good later, so you end up spending time and energy recycling when it would be less time and energy to create new filament.

It would probably be better to put that time and money into insulating your house and growing flowers for local birds and bees.

Unfortunately there isn't a true, affordable (for an individual or small group) circular solution that I've found. I've taken to gathering all my scraps in a bucket (not mixing plastic types) then occasionally having a "recycling day" to melt them down into bars, rods, or sheets, which are then used for other things using more traditional manufacturing techniques. I made some very pretty swirly vases on the lathe, for example. It's not ideal.

That's why we need regulations and mandatory 10-15yrs warranty

There are externalities with this approach. A big issue with clothing donations, for example, is they put local textile manufacturers out of business. Why buy locally made whatever when you can get second-hand name-brand clothing for cheap?

There's a "paying the window-breakers to keep the glass-makers in business" illogic to that.

Why work to prevent any waste when we can just hire more people to generate more wasteful things?

Because it's inequitable. You rely on an impoverished underclass to prevent your waste, while harming their ability to change the situation.

> Because it's inequitable.

I presume you mean "inequitable" as in "unfair", and that's just life: life is unfair.

And as peoples have very different ideas of what is "fair", we should be very careful using _force_ to try and make things "fair".

> You rely on an impoverished underclass to prevent your waste, while harming their ability to change the situation.

As a practical matter, letting poorer nations develop their own manufacturing and become wealthier is almost always better for everyone. A rising tide lifts all boats.

The problem is that developed nations like the US have argued it's "unfair" for poorer nations to ban imports of second-hand clothes while getting certain preferential treatment to export new clothes to the US. For example, Rwanda banned imports of second-hand clothes and so their manufacturers face higher taxes (than other "developing" nations in Africa) when exporting clothes to the US, which puts Rwandan businesses at a disadvantage.

What's the "equitable" solution there? Who decides what is "equitable"? What if peoples disagree?

Instead, an appeal to self-interest should tell us that letting Rwanda and other poorer nations engage in _some_ economic protectionism against developed nations is likely to work out better for the developed nations.

There are many of us that actively seek out bargains on good used tools and equipment through estate sales and the like. But it takes lots of free time. The average homeowner and contractor do not have hours to waste on getting 50% off a $200 tool.

When I was young, TV pitchman Ron Popeil sold a food dehydrator and advertized that it was easy to clean. My mom bought one, tried it out, and upon realizing that most of the food she put in there was stuck to the trays, packed up the whole thing and mailed it back, dehydrated apple slices and all. They refunded her without an issue.

Just as an aside, Ron Popeil products were generally crap. He made a lot of money because those products mostly were bought as gifts for people (who were afraid they would offend the gifter if they returned them).

Yep. They (edit: in Costco, Walmart, or whatever in the US) don't care, and half the time they're happy to point out that it's OK what you're doing and please just calm down. My wife didn't grow up in the US, so wasn't used to this, but now she's addicted to doing returns when there's anything even slightly wrong.

I bought the wrong size of shower curtain from Walmart and for some odd reason I held onto it for 4 years. When moving into my new place I found the shower curtain, that still didn't have the right size... so I returned it no questions asked, I think the price had even gone up a little bit since I bought it.

Thanks for the morning chuckle. As a 2x parent I remember the poop blowouts (fondly?)....

Good for you. I think I have PTSD from the first one, 22 years ago.

In the US, you have a "credit report" for your retail returns. If your returns are determined to e.g., be excessive (even if your other returns were at different retailers), you might be denied the return.

An example of one of these retail return consumer reporting agencies:

https://www.theretailequation.com/

Another random anecdote.

We ordered a custom glass shower door from Lowes because we were remodeling.

During the process, we found we were happy with a curtain (which we did not have before, we were replacing an existing door).

So, we asked Lowes if they would take it back, and they did.

A custom sized, $1500 door -- and they took it back. We were really surprised and grateful for it, to be sure. No idea what the aftermarket is for random sized shower doors.

I have a custom glass shower door that I bought at a discount because someone returned it. Not to Lowe's though. It was some local tile shop.

I suspect this is the case of a retailer prisoners dilemma - if one retailer offered no-questions-asked returns and one did not then the one offering returns would get a lot more business. If neither of them offered unlimited returns they'd both be better off, but as soon as one offer it (defects) then they both have to do so.

Amazon used to be like that, but now they are making their returns harder.

IMO Amazon returns are easier than ever. You don't even need to box it up, just drop the item off at Whole Foods. I feel like my local Whole Foods is at least 20% an Amazon returns depot these days.

They started charging fees for UPS pick ups. It may not apply to all returns, but definitely some are noticing: https://www.reddit.com/r/amazonprime/comments/voem7s/prime_r...

It must be non-deterministic and "risk based," like Google's authentication.

In my most recent return, it was a cheap item, but the incorrect size, and they told me to keep, discard, or donate it and refunded my money.

I feel bad about returns sometimes; I bought something from Walmart, and the product had no issues at all, but I had misread how it would mount to my bike, and wouldn't work. I didn't notice until I had opened the box - I carefully repacked it and returned it.

It was still perfectly fine, they complained not at all.

The next day, there it is on the clearance aisle for $10 off. I felt bad.

They really don't care. I returned something once and the lady behind the counter asked what the reason for returning it was. I said, "my wife told me to get that ugly thing out of the house." She nodded, scanned it and gave me the refund.

Yeah, they only ask the question to see if it should go back on the shelf, back into clearance, or into the auction, or trash.

A completely un-opened non-food item goes on the shelf, an opened item goes into clearance, and most everything else is auctioned or trashed. If you say it was broken, it goes into trash but I daresay they ding the manufacturer.

On other hand I would be somewhat annoyed as customer if it had ended up with new items back in the shelve. You never know if something is missing or slightly broken.

I bought a carpet cleaner "new" from target via curb pickup. It was clearly used (presumably once), there was water in the plumbing, the bottle of cleaner was opened, and the cord was not machine wrapped. Never used curbside pickup after that. I did keep the machine though, for better or for worse.

I would have at least gone in and complained and get a discount (I have a similar carpet cleaner I got from the Walmart clearance aisle, best $30 or whatever I ever spent there).

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