> the wendelstein 7x is never going to generate usable electricity
What's the reason for that?
What's the reason for that?
What they've already demonstrated is a tremendous accomplishment. But apparently if it doesn't go from idea to an option in door dash in 6 months flat that's not good enough for people here.
I hear ya. The attention span of a TikTok or less.
Leaves farmland, if you want to do this kind of thing at any sort of required scale. (Sure you can put solar cells on barn roofs, but the premise was scale magnitudes beyond that.)
In fact, most plants can only use sunlight for a few hours a day, and must then endure the heat for the rest of the day. A few crops -- wheat, corn -- offer slightly reduced yields when shaded, but many others -- particularly peppers -- yield better with partial shade. Even where yield is reduced, the extra year-round revenue and radically reduced water loss may even the score.
Or in other words: Fusion is too expensive at this point to be useful.
(+) These numbers are for the USA. I found a mention of a cheaper project in Chile https://about.bnef.com/blog/cost-of-new-renewables-temporari... but I don't know what the situation is in Europe. And wind might be even lower.
On http://generadoras.cl/tipos-energia/energia-solar scroll down to "Capacidad por región", Antofagasta and Atacama are the desert regions in the with over 90% of installed capacity.
In Germany or the Netherlands it is a bit harder to find space for large solar plants.
And to windy places. Happening already in Europe, building new industrial plant close to the huge and fast growing offshore North Sea wind power plants
The first TVs were for the very rich, and had 4" bw screens. Now they're 80", thin, and insanely cheap.
Then some countries stepped up the subsidies game and booom, prices fell dramatically since suddenly everybody wanted a piece of the cake. And competition drove this all down.
All you need is for somebody to start. Or we just keep telling ourselves that it's too expensive, shrug, and move on.
Also note how the goal posts changed. Until recently, everybody made fun of fusion by basically saying it's too hard, it's too far in the future. Now it's not too hard anymore, it's just too expensive. What's next? Too loud? Too big? Induces headaches with the esoterically minded?
https://orcutt.net/weblog/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/The-Tro...
I specifically studied the German grid, and it needs about a MONTH of storage to compensate for a once-in-a-century Dunkelflaute (a period with little wind, no sun, and cold temperatures).
If you accept slightly less than 100% renewables, you could use diesel or gas backup for these once-in-a-century events.
Rooppur Nuclear Power Plant cost $6 per Watt of installed capacity over the projected 50 years of lifetime. Simple natural gas turbines (not combined cycle) cost around $2 per Watt over 50 years in just capital costs. This doesn't take into account the cost of the fuel, or the magic infrastructure to produce, store, and deliver hydrogen.
I'm taking Rooppur Nuclear Power Plant as the base for comparison because it's an example of what you can do, when you have a "mass produced" design that you can just quickly build.
I also doubt anyone is going to be buying Russian nuclear power plants in Europe anytime soon. The strategic risk and associated cost (as seen with importing natural gas from Russia) would be far too high.
Not much higher, though. Russia makes money on these contracts. South Korea has
> I also doubt anyone is going to be buying Russian nuclear power plants in Europe anytime soon. The strategic risk and associated cost (as seen with importing natural gas from Russia) would be far too high.
Of course. I'm not suggesting that Russia should be relied upon for ANYTHING at this point. It should be as isolated economically as possible.
I'm just using this as an example of what you can do with a streamlined construction pipeline for plain old PWRs. No fancy new technology, no breakthroughs, just regular old good project management.
That's a lot. Even cheap gas turbine power plants will cost around $100B to build.
And while the one-month Dunkelflaute is exceptional, the shorter versions lasting a couple of days happen basically every year. As a result, you probably need about 2-3 weeks a year of various levels of backup utilization every year.
This is how it looks in practice: https://energy-charts.info/charts/power/chart.htm?l=de&c=DE&... - look at the period from 18th Jan to 25th Jan. The renewable generation fell to around 8% of the nameplate capacity during that period.
I have not seen any real plans to fix this. My prediction is that Germany will just continue to burn gas and coal well into 2030-s.
A combined cycle power plant costs about $1/W of capacity (and for rare events, simple cycle would be even cheaper), so one could back up the entire grid with these at a small capital cost compared to powering the grid with nuclear. For Europe, these would also be useful for seasonal leveling, allowing solar to provide a larger fraction of Europe's energy demand.
Hydrogen is an example of "Power to X" (PtX), where excess power, when available, is used to make some very storable commodity. This review article talks about how important these are to reaching 100% RE.
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9837910
"With every iteration in the research and with every technological breakthrough in these areas, 100% RE systems become increasingly viable. Even former critics must admit that adding e-fuels through PtX makes 100% RE possible at costs similar to fossil fuels."
I have not seen any real plan to achieve this. Right now, it's basically a giant asterisk with a footnote saying: "Magic happens here".
One plan I've seen where authors went totally wild and actually tried to compute what's needed, required converting 80% of housing to district heating with molten salt storage, all kinds of energy storage, and 2x price electricity increase.
I've seen estimates that simply building out hydrogen backup will cost on the order of $300B in power line and pipeline upgrades (because hydrogen can't just be piped through natural gas pipes). And it will still require expanding the renewable fleet.
I'm not at all optimistic about that.
FWIW, I think power-to-natural-gas has the biggest chance, because it can re-use the natural gas infrastructure. But it's still going to be too expensive.
There is nothing preventing this from being applied to Europe. All the technologies are available. It's just a matter of integrating existing capabilities, which is the surest kind of innovation.
No pipeline upgrades are needed for hydrogen for grid storage, since there's no need to move hydrogen away from the storage caverns. It can be created and consumed there. It could be useful to build pipelines, of course, but it isn't necessary. I am NOT suggesting using hydrogen to replace natural gas in distributed applications.
Power-to-natural-gas has the problem of where does the carbon come from. CO2 capture (either from the atmosphere, or from the exhaust of the CC plants) would add to cost, and then the CO2 needs to be stored also. And, the round trip efficiency will be considerably below that of hydrogen. Power-to-liquid fuels would make more sense; it doesn't cost that much more to turn CO2 + H2 into such fuels instead of to methane. Liquid fuels (normally for air or ship transportation, for example) could also serve as a rare event backstop along with hydrogen, for once-in-a-century events, as long as the CC plants can burn both.
You're making it right now.
> If you haven't seen "any real plan" that just reflects your disinterest in seeing such a plan.
No. I did a full literature search and I read most of the articles in that area.
> There is nothing preventing this from being applied to Europe. All the technologies are available. It's just a matter of integrating existing capabilities, which is the surest kind of innovation.
What is "this"?
> No pipeline upgrades are needed for hydrogen for grid storage, since there's no need to move hydrogen away from the storage caverns. It can be created and consumed there.
The thing is, most of German storage is in the northern part (Rehden, Etzel, Epe, etc) due to geology. That's not where the consumers are, so you need to build a huge amount of power lines.
To give you a perspective, a fairly typical natural gas pipeline can transfer around 1 Bcf of gas per day, which translates to about 12GW of power. This is the same as the largest ultra-high-voltage direct current (UHVDC) line in the world (in Brazil), built at the cost of around $2.5B for 2400 km.
And you'll need many, many such lines to transfer power from the points of generation and consumption to the hydrogen hubs. This is in addition to already expensive hydrogen production and gas turbines.
I don't see this ever becoming cost-competitive with plain old PWRs.
It is about research. It generating usable electricity is absolutely irrelevant.
You need research projects to figure out what works and what doesn't. The goal isn't to build a practical reactor.
In detail, I'll let someone smarter than me in nuclear physics explain: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/175830/nuclear-f...