The Woman Behind Borges | Hacker News Reader

The Woman Behind Borges

thedial.world

43 pointsapollinaire16 comments

>Bioy Casares then supposedly took advantage of the moment to ask Kodama if he could photograph her, since she had “an ideal face.” The phrase was coarse, an objectification

Asking to photograph her with a compliment is an "objectification"? Who even talks and thinks like that, much less put it to print.

Who says that? I understand a pretty face, or an attractive face, but an "ideal" face? That's pretty weird. It's like a goal that can be optimized.

There may be something lost in translation.

Ironically, ideal is the same in English as it is in Spanish. And German for that matter. And Turkish. Seems like the ideal word for the concept.

The space of meaning and the usage patterns of words are almost never 100% the same between languages. This can have the effect of a choice of word being somewhat less appropriate in one language than the other, even when the words nominally mean the same thing. In addition, there may be Spanish words other than “ideal” that nevertheless can be translated as “ideal” in English for one of their meanings, but that translation wasn’t the best in this particular case. Of course I don’t know if that’s what happened here, but it’s a possibility.

Ideal as in (one of the dictionary lemmas) "satisfying one's conception of what is perfect". Basically a more elegant stand-in for perfect.

As artist-speak goes, for people familiar with the arts and aesthetic lingo before post-modern art, it's a very common expression, whether in Spanish, English, French, etc.

No, "ideal" doesn't refer to optimization, because it's not a scientific term. The context is Platonic forms - something is ideal if it approaches its archetypal model. This is particularly applicable to beauty.

Yes, it is in fact creepy, weird, and objectifying.

Men's sense of entitlement to give "compliments" does not supercede women's right to not get creepy, weird, objectifying comments from creepy weird men.

I’m not going to argue that it’s not perceived as creepy, because I can see that. But your second point is a little off the mark with how you phrased it. No one has a right to not be spoken to.

I ride the bus to work. There’s a very large, imposing, but otherwise friendly fellow I frequently run into. He like to strike up a conversation with/at me every time he sees me. He actually will talk to anyone who is near him. It’s annoying and unwanted, but it’s not violating any fundamental rights.

I understand where you’re coming from, but no one knows you don’t want to be spoken to until you inform them. And you certainly have a right to do that. It’s just a bit of a slippery slope wrt free speech to imply that someone’s speech infringes on a perceived right to not hear it.

It's not a matter of not wanting to be spoken to in general, but specifically not wanting creepy, objectifying comments.

Of the kind that say "you have an ideal face"?

No wonder there's a loneliness epidemic if people have labelling anything and everything as creepy.

Yes, that comment _is_ creepy and objectifying (regarding a woman as an ideal object rather than as a person).

If men want to be less lonely then they need to work on treating women as fellow human beings and not acting so entitled.

In the human world, giving compliments is in itself neither creepy, nor objectifying. Your ideology may vary.

The example is not simply a compliment, it's an _objectifying_ comment. That's the issue.

Try giving a compliment that addresses the person as a human being with real experiences, thoughts, and accomplishments, rather than regarding the person as an object matching some abstract ideal. It's not a matter of ideology, just acting like a decent human being.

That's a great username for posting this article!

Is that so?

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