Perils of not being attractive or athletic in middle school | Hacker News Reader

Perils of not being attractive or athletic in middle school

fau.edu

64 pointsgeox95 comments

>The study included 580 middle school students who ranged in age from 10 to 13.

>They also described how often they felt lonely and how often they drank alcohol to the point of intoxication during the past month.

These two phrases put together shocked me.

10-13 yo drinking alcohol to the point of getting drunk?

Who sold alcohol to them? Where are their parents?!

It doesn't take that much alcohol to get a 13 year old drunk. And they likely took it from their parents, have older siblings/cousins/etc. or robbed a store. "Where are their parents?!" - not every child has great parents. Besides there are numerous ways imaginable for a teen to conceal that behavior.

If I was unclear, this is culture shock to me (grew up in EU).

The age at which my school peers were introduced to alcohol was in high school, 16-18 range, when everybody started going out at night.

I do not remember anybody even joking about drinking alcohol before then.

Grew up in EU. We thought it was edgy and cool to drink alcohol around 13/14. We couldn’t acquire serious quantities so not much drunkenness happened. We’d like share a beer between 10 people and think we’re soooo drunk

Grew up in EU as well(Austria). When around 13 we’d buy alcohol with the old “I’m getting it for my dad” excuse. (Obviously my dad needed some 4% alcoholic lemonade in the early afternoon) Cashiers didn’t really care. At least back in the 90s.

Starting high school (~age 15, legal drinking age is 16) we’d go to bars to have a beer.

Growing up in Vienna (Austria) I can confirm that many bars existed to cater to middle schoolers and it was very easy buying alcohol (Whiskey, Beer etc.) at 13/14. Getting in with siblings' student IDs is still common as far as I can tell.

German here who was 13 in the 90s - while I'd heard of several people (and friends of mine) who drank alcohol at 13, it was a lot more common at 15 (but mind you, we're allowed to legally drink beer with 16, so I don't consider drinking beer at 15 a big deal). All mostly middle class children who went on to go to uni, maybe the occasional outlier with a less than normal home situation.

They did want to see government IDs in shops, but I guess that highly depends on the shop or your exact location.

>many bars existed to cater to middle schoolers and it was very easy buying alcohol (Whiskey, Beer etc.) at 13/14.

Definitely not legal. How come the owners aren't in jail? This is no joke, we are talking about children.

Seems like serious levels of corruption.

The shops don't advertise that of course, so with what claim would you nail them?

Here in the Netherlands, about 10 years ago, there was a new law that coffeeshops selling marihuana are not allowed within 250 meter from schools. That is a rule working the other way around.

Funnily enough, the notorious night club I was thinking of from my youth actually is closed now.

Fair! That's "healthier."

It would be best to not drink at all.

But the older people start, the better. Ideally, as an adult, as kids are not responsible for themselves.

The section you quoted was about questions they asked the students: How lonely did they feel, how often did they drink alcohol.

Gather 580 middle school students and you’ll find a subset of them engaging in shocking behavior. This can usually be traced back to a combination of disengaged parents and older siblings who are a bad influence. 13 year olds are teenagers and are plenty capable of stealing their parents’ alcohol if desired.

The prevalence of these behaviors varies wildly from one demographic to another. I’ve been involved with schools with highly involved parents where a student even hearing rumors of one of their peers consuming alcohol would set in motion a chain of events where parents talked to each other and their kids about alcohol use and took steps to keep each other informed and lock their own alcohol away.

Meanwhile I have extended family who teach in two different farming communities. It’s not uncommon for even middle schoolers to get caught with drugs or arrive at school under the influence of something. Not all of them, of course, but it’s a frequent enough occurrence that it’s not all that noteworthy when it happens again.

The range of parenting styles and home environments across the United States is extreme. It can be unfamiliar to many who grew up in one bubble to hear about the vast differences that exist in other bubbles.

It's interesting that there's a lack of morality or ethics or civics education in schools. As if schools don't teach people how people should act in a civilised society. Being unattractive or being unathletic should not subject someone to ridicule or unfair treatment. And those that are attractive or athletic should be given special attention in this regard.

Oh, we should tell people to be good; then they will stop being bad.

I get that it’s not this simple - but my flippant response is that “with kids, yes!”… this is an essential part of being a parent or role model - tell kids how/why to be “good” , and largely they won’t be bad.

> tell kids how/why to be “good” , and largely they won’t be bad.

That is only part of the solution. Kids do more modeling than critical thinking. Parents and other role models need to show kids a good example. Bad behavior in kids is largely from bad modeling by the people they look up to, not insufficient instruction. Certainly the "why" should be explained, but saying "don't lie" means nothing if the person saying it then goes around lying constantly.

There is also the question of children becoming more peer oriented than parent oriented, which has become an increasingly prevelant situation the past century or so. The kids with better behavior tend to seek instruction, modeling, and self-worth from their parents. Kids with worse behavior tend to seek instruction, modeling, and self-worth from their peers (which is generally a terrible idea).

"It is your moral imperative to be kind, ecspecially if they are an uggo."

I actually went to FAU where this study was performed, the high school 1 mile west of it, and the middle school 1 mile south of that.

During my time at middle school, I knew 5 outcast kids who were regularly getting drunk and high at 12 years old.

All had troubled families and/or divorced parents.

Anecdotal, but I can remember receiving a survey like this at school when I was around the same age. They didn’t tell us what it was for. I had no idea who would be reading it. On a lot of the questions, I lied, and said I was doing things that I’d actually never done before, because I didn’t want to look like a square in front of my peers.

I had no trouble getting alcohol and pot at 13. There were tons of places that sold to minors, and adults of questionable morality that would buy for kids for a cut of the purchase price. Kids would raid parents liquor cabinets. Older siblings would buy.

But it’s not like most kids that age sit around drinking all day. You would occasionally happen into it and have a party with friends.

My parents were present, but I just didn’t do it in front of them. That’s not that hard to figure out. I would “go to a friends house,” they would “go to my house,” and in reality we went to the lake and drank and smoked up.

I don’t think this is a new phenomenon. We were doing it 35 years ago, and the oldsters I knew had done it too.

>I had no trouble getting alcohol and pot at 13. There were tons of places that sold to minors, and adults of questionable morality that would buy for kids for a cut of the purchase price. Kids would raid parents liquor cabinets. Older siblings would buy.

Wow. In contrast, it never crossed my mind to buy alcohol (or pot) at 13.

It was not a thing in my environment, either. The mere idea of kids getting drunk is insanity from my perspective.

Middle school was weird for me. The first day it was like a switch flipped. I went from being a quiet, weird kid, to being very aggressive and borderline psychotic. I ended up getting in a good bit of trouble and narrowly dodged some bullets that I probably deserved to be hit by. I was always respectful to teachers and staff though, which led to a weird dynamic where I could squeeze out of trouble where other kids couldn’t. I remember getting in a fight towards the end of sixth grade and getting off Scott free when a coach stopped us and asked me if [other kid], who was a notable trouble maker, was messing with me. Of course this was all probably exacerbated by a turbulent home life at the time. It didn’t do much for my social standing. I guess I was bullied less, and had a bit more respect, but a lot of people really didn’t like me at the time, particularly girls. On the other hand, it was also when I developed my interest in computers and programming, which would serve me well for at least a while.

Luckily by high school, I cooled down, figuring it was best just to keep my head down and graduate so I could move in with my life, but it was also pretty boring and forgettable.

> Of course this was all probably exacerbated by a turbulent home life at the time.

In my limited experience working with kids of this age in an educational environment: Home life was far and away the strongest correlate of behavioral problems that I anecdotally observed. It was sad watching good kids suddenly become troubled, then to eventually learn that something traumatic had happened in their home life right around the time of the change.

My mom went through a lot of health problems starting when I was in 7th grade. my dad was working 28 days a month to keep the family afloat and I was the oldest kid so a lot of responsibilities fell to me. Fortunately, my advanced math teacher was also the middle school drama teacher. She got me into the drama and improv clubs and it gave me an outlet to deal with my emotions in a healthy way.

I was glad I could return the favor and bring her onstage as my most influential teacher at high school graduation, especially since she was a tough teacher who most students at that age were disinclined to like.

I’m glad I was an outcast in middle school in hindsight. It prepared me for being okay with some social isolation required in college to study like crazy and end up with a great career.

I assume you mean such social isolation was required for you? I know a fair number of people who were able to study like crazy while maintaining a rich social life.

Agreed but I wish I hadn’t suffered.

I plan to do something like take my daughter out of school and home school for those years or live internationally. She is both attractive and athletic, but I wouldn’t want her to be on the other side of the equation either.

I understand the desire to protect your children from having bad experiences, but isn’t that exactly the time when she would need to start learning how to handle these things on her own? If you isolate her, how’s she going to learn how to handle the politics of high school, college, and adult work life? At what point do you decide to throw her back into the pool, that’s now full of peers who already had the chance to figure out how to navigate the social intricacies?

It seems like providing open communication and support for her struggles would be more constructive for her future.

I didn’t find middle school behavior to be particularly material for further social interactions in life. High school, college, yes. Pubescent bullies and cliques? Not so much. Puberty is hard enough without swimming in a sea of it. My experience was middle school was nothing like high school, college, or life afterwards. It was like some weird collective psychotic break for a few years then everyone went back to being normal.

Sounds like a great time to explore the world and gain social skills that way.

My parents did this to me. Please don't. It was a huge burden on my social development at a critical time. The trials and tribulations of school suck, but are needed challenges in a teens life.

It’s a bit of a false dichotomy. Perhaps it can be a silver lining, though.

What is the opportunity cost though? Guess we'll never know without a control group, but possible to do both

> It prepared me for being okay with some social isolation required in college to study like crazy and end up with a great career.

I’m glad it worked out for you, but social isolation isn’t the only way to study and land a good career. Even my friends at notoriously difficult universities had good social lives as long as they had a modicum of time management.

Brains vs brawn is a harmful false dichotomy perpetuated by the media which becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy when bright kids fall for it and lose interest in athletics. In truth, a healthy body and a healthy mind compliment each other and make each other stronger.

Just stay away from the sports which are likely to cause traumatic brain injury, like American football. Smart nerdy kids can flourish in track & field or swim teams; co-ed sports are best for social development. Hiking and cycling are also great options for getting fit, but perhaps not as great for socializing.

I’ve always wondered how true those 80s coming of age movies where there’s a stark divide, between the nerds and jocks were. In my experience, school was never such a simple dichotomy, particularly in high school. On the other hand, I’ve heard a lot of crazy stories from people who were in school at the time, so I wouldn’t be particularly shocked.

In my school, the football and basketball teams acted like those 80s movies, and I think they were essentially playing out the roles they saw portrayed in media. But swimming and track were very supportive, with nerds and jocks getting along well and some of the best performers being both the smartest and the fittest (more than myself in both regards tbqh.) What it taught me is that people can be strong, smart and compassionate all at the same time; life isn't like an RPG where you have to spec into one at the expense of the others.

For me, middle school was a bit more stratified, but particularly later in high school, I never felt much vitriol or division across such simple categories. I was mostly cool with everyone, without ever belonging to a particular group. I learned to adapt and “code switch” among different people pretty very well, which has also carried over to adulthood. Though I do admit it’s been pretty isolating.

It feels that way to the nerds! But in fact most of the jocks are nearly as smart as the nerds, they just also play sports.

True, there’s a number of top athletes that are also top students. The level of discipline for some of them is remarkable.

I always found the class clowns to be surprisingly smart. I knew this one guy who was a total goof off who always came to class high as shit. I remember one time talking with him in the computer lab only to be surprised he wanted to talk about programming as he had been playing around with game engines for a little while.

There was another guy who was admittedly pretty funny, but I never heard him say anything serious in the entire years I knew him. Until one day, when I had started doing some freelancing work and he stopped by and talked to me about his own pursuits.

Not being American, I always wondered if those movies were actually representative of American schools, because it wasn't at all like any school I had been to.

The one resource that is limited though is time. And you're competing with others who are investing only into either faculty, and it is a zero-sum game. Not many remember the kids who come third in the swim meet.

How many even remember the kids who come first in swim meet, though?

The valedictorian in my highschool class was the second or third fastest guy on my swim team, and I remember him.

But being remembered isn't the point. Which team won a swim meet was never a big deal to us, most people didn't care at all and were trying to beat their own personal records. Personal improvement was the focus, not fame or medals. With relay events there was more pressure to perform, but only relatively so.

    Results, published in the Journal of Youth and Adolescence , show that low attractive youth and low athletic youth became increasingly unpopular over the course of a school year, leading to subsequent increases in their loneliness and alcohol misuse. Put simply, the peer group punishes those who do not have highly valued traits such as being good-looking or being good at sports.

Yeah... that's just what we used to call normal life. It was far worse before the internet. If you weren't pretty or athletic, you had to at least be funny, and by funny I mean being open to getting abused as entertainment. If you were too socially awkward or ugly or creepy though, you were just shit out of luck.

Now at least no matter who you are you probably have a whole online community, subreddit, social movement and identity ready for you.

Took my son to a middle school ice cream social / find your locker day today and can confirm. Lots of jocks and athletes.

I grew up in the rust belt, so all the athletes I knew faded quickly after high school. Now that we live in a nice neighborhood I’m guessing these kids grow up and go into law and business? They certainly have no future in sports.

That just makes sense for the most part I think. Generally, people who have a lot of positive social interactions generally continue to, and that leads well to success in people oriented professions.

On the one hand, being an outcast and not having nearly any friends led me to an (eventual) strong sense of self-worth and decent street smarts.

Being picked on, beat up, and bullied has definitely left some scars, and left me socially way behind the curve, but I don't think I would trade my experiences for anybody else's.

> suggesting that they must endure the indignities of powerlessness to remain attached to the peer group

Beside other things, already said here, I'd like to add that the ability to disregard your peer group and consciously detach from it is pretty useful in further life, even though attaining this ability is painful, especially as a kid.

(Disclaimer: I was both highly popular and pretty unpopular in middle school, at different schools.)

I got the shit beaten out of me nearly everyday in middle school, and it contributed to my bitter cynicism about the world and justice in general, and shattered my ethical compass.

Somewhat similar to what happened to me. Not everyday, but regularly. Until I'd had enough and beat down the jock who happened to take some issue or the other with me that day. After that, no one messed with me. Which is good, because I didn't want to get into another fight.

That sort of thing should never have to happen. Sadly, I'm sure it's worse nowadays.

I never dared to fight back because I was weak and I knew it wasn’t going to be enough to just win a fight anyway. If I fought back they’d beat me up even harder, I really felt like I was going to die in middle school, and no one would care. I often fantasized about just killing off all the bullies, and finally be at peace forever.

I had a similar experience for a few years, although not as bad as you had it I think. I would also regularly fantasise about killing the bullies.

My tormenters eased off as we got older though. Some of the worst had been expelled by then for assaulting teachers. I was still mostly a social outcast but acquired a weird kind of nerd cool.

Your reply is important. There is a myth that bullies are weak cowards. Now, they may actually turn into cowards when they are faced with a fight that is important but they are likely to lose. But the idea that you can poke them in the nose and they'll go running is very false. It is absolutely true that fighting back without something to back it up can turn a bad situation into a far more dangerous one.

Not arguing that people shouldn't fight back against odds, or that there's no benefit to fighting even if you'll lose, but I insist that we be realistic about the situation a lot of people getting bullied are facing.

>I knew it wasn’t going to be enough to just win a fight anyway

Im sorry to say this, but no. Its much easier than you think. Mere fact of wanting to fight back changes the way you are perceived. You dont need to win anything, you need to show some backbone and stop being a pushover. Bullies will move to next easiest target and leave you alone. They want easy bullying, not fights. Bullies smell fear, you were bullied because you were afraid to fight back.

victor106 in another comment asks "How do you teach resilience to a kid? What are some things you can do from they are toddlers to teach them?"

You sign your kid up for karate/taekwondo/judo/aikido at age ~6. https://www.shojinjudo.com/wordpress/judo-for-children/ The point is not so he can learn how to fight back, its so he/she never has to because of self-esteem, confidence and self-respect gained thru training.

I doubt it.

First of all, if I fought back, they would perceive it as a challenge to their dominance, and then they would beat the fuck out of me without holding anything back. Previously they would beat me up just enough that I could live to get beat up again another day, but if I really pissed them off, they might beat me up so hard I get killed. This is how middle school kid logic works.

A better strategy I always wanted to try was threatening to bring a gun to school and kill them all, and I think this was something I could have really sold to them, but this approach always seemed very risky because I knew they’d report me to some administrator and I’d end up in a detention center or prison for a very long time.

In the end, it was just easier to get beat up and avoid dying as much as possible.

>First of all, if I fought back, they would perceive it as a challenge to their dominance, and then they would beat the fuck out of me without holding anything back. Previously they would beat me up just enough that I could live to get beat up again another day, but if I really pissed them off, they might beat me up so hard I get killed.

This is all in your head. You build this scenario to cope with bad situation :( Assuming US: https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D158;jsessioni... 31 in 2019.

https://ojjdp.ojp.gov/newsletter/ojjdp-news-glance-marchapri... "Youth age 17 and younger committed 14 percent of the child homicides that occurred between 2003 and 2019 (among cases in which the perpetrator’s age was known)"

~15% committed by other children. So statistically in 2019 5 white boys have been killed by their peers in an assault. Almost all assaults involved guns https://www.kff.org/global-health-policy/issue-brief/child-a...

Child being killed in a fight/brawl with other children in school setting is so rare you wont be able to find more than a handful cases in last 20 years. I could only locate two, both girls. Girls are really vicious and unlike boys often go for permanent injury during a fight. https://abcnews.go.com/US/13-year-houston-girl-dies-jumped-l... https://abcnews.go.com/US/charges-filed-death-5th-grader-ran.... Plenty crime/gang related examples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Reena_Virk https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-65275440), but very little direct assaults by bullies.

>A better strategy I always wanted to try was threatening to bring a gun to school and kill them all

No doubt you were paralyzed by fear, but this is crazy talk! I had my share of bullying in grade school. I put the blame on lack of strong male role model leading to social maladjustment. Years of running to mummy and teachers (typical reactions ranging from 'boys will be boys' to 'no matter who started everyone gets penalized' or the worst 'shake hands and apologize to each other') with no help in sight. All sharply ended when I finally stood up for myself to just one of aggressors last year of school. I later helped another victim in high school by instructing him to fight back, worked exactly the same. It didnt matter he couldnt fight at all and got beat up, that was the last time bully targeted him, he became too much of a hassle for a cheap laugh.

>In the end, it was just easier to get beat up and avoid dying as much as possible.

Again this is what fear made you believe. Bullies dont want fights, bullies want to bully. Fight brings risk to the table, risk of being caught, risk of injury, worst of all risk of humiliation. They seek to spread unchallenged humiliation and violence, thats why they pick helpless victims. Btw someone in permanent victim mentality stands out to psychopaths from a mile away, they can spot vulnerable people at a glance: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/why-bad-looks-good/2... Anecdotally I was never perceived as potential victim in high school or later in life, it all stopped when I finally gathered enough confidence to take control of my own fear and confront the bully*

I sincerely hope you got better, managed to adjust and gained enough self-esteem to put past behind you and not let fear control your life.

*) Breaking his nose with my knee didnt hurt either. By accident mind you, kid twice my weight charged head first and I instinctively bend my knee. I kept repeating that motion until he stopped pushing me into the wall. Then I noticed my shoe and leg soaked in blood. School tried to expel me (for self defense!) but that went nowhere quick when a history of reporting being punched/kicked by this very kid for 3 years straight somehow all of a sudden came to light and friend of my mum (mum would just take it without protesting) started shouting at school principal and demanding Police involvement. Once again none of this would have happened with strong personality in the house, it took my mums friend to finally punch thru teacher indifference and put some fear of consequences into them.

Did it make you cool and independent or more like a hateful incel. Honest question, no judgement either way.

"...Dad had been beaten up by some kids his age and left lying on the ground, bleeding and with a split lip. Reading that, I thought he had never had a chance. Something had been broken inside him at a very young age. This is a dangerous notion because no one apart from ourselves has responsibility for what we do, we are humans, not creatures subject to forces that drive us here and there without offering any resistance. Unless of course being under the sway of others is part of the human condition, and being a good person is the same as being a lucky person.” (Knausgaard, My Struggle, Book 6)

Glaring false dichotomy.

I didn't get beat up but have been hit and was bullied a lot. Middle school was a terrible experience and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Luckily it gets better but I wish there was a different way. Educating our children should not be so haphazard.

Is this American-specific culture? Athletics seem disproportionately more important in a school than academics or anything else. That's just bizarre. In the country I came from, students who work hard or are good at a subject, any subject, would earn respect, just like those who are good at sports.

Most other countries don’t consider extra curricular activities when applying for university but American colleges do

I guess it is American-specific (I'm from Belgium, lived a year in California 25 years ago): sport is one out of hundreds of options you have to take to get a full schedule in school. Everyday is the same day, be it monday or wednesday. You get 5 hours of class - from 8am to 3pm - and they're the same everyday. I don't know where you're from, but in USA (at least where I lived a year), math, geography, biology, chemistry, physics, sport, choir,...all are options. There are only a few mandatory classes: english (obvious), economics, and I forgot the last one I had. The other hours, you go to the class you chose. So, if you're not into academics or art, you choose some sport and it takes almost half of your school schedule. And you get the same high school diploma than someone who took math and chemistry. That's how athletics becomes so important in their schools, but arts can be too, or any subject. In Belgium, our school system went for the "a brain discovers a lot of subjects" teaching style, in US it's more "a brain (or a body) nicely trained on one subject".

update: tried to clarify differences between Belgium / US styles.

Is being interested in computers in middle school still seen as uncool, given how mainstream tech has become?

Absolutely

I think there's two different types of "tech", and it's cool to have stuff (apple gadgets, social media) but it's still uncool to be into computers. Apparently colleges are having problems because new students have no concept of how to use an actual computer, can't grasp how filesystems work, are used to apps just being a button on the home screen. Modern phones have obfuscated pretty much all back-end stuff save for a few switches on a settings screen.

For a while it wasn't, but since smartphones computers are not used by most kids anymore, to the point employers have trouble hiring people with even basic computer skills.

I was never bullied for it. In fact a lot of people thought I was some master hacker who could help them out. It was mostly novel or intriguing to the other kids I interacted with, until high school when I met other people who were interested in that stuff.

I gained some air of notoriety with "popular" kids in secondary school after getting in some publicised computer-related shenanigans.

I'd also imagine computery-type teenagers are often introverted, which doesn't help.

Even though social isolation may make someone more resilient, I don't think there's any good advantage to it. You can study better if you're not alone, and these relationships give you knowledge that'll be used in the workplace years later, when you need to manage a team. You can get proper resilience from bad relationships, not the lack thereof. And, well, the study also said that it can lead to stuff like alcohol misuse, which is not cool at all.

This is mostly another consequence of social media use by kids and teenagers. Why are 14 year-olds so worried about being attractive anyway?

> Why are 14 year-olds so worried about being attractive anyway?

Because they’re going through puberty and are probably pretty horny?

Yeah I was 14 way before anyone had heard the word "instagram", and people were pretty obsessed with being attractive as a means to being able to express and experiment with budding sexuality. Social media seems to make this worse, but mostly when this stuff comes up I just think "same as it ever was...".

They shouldn't be worried, but it puts a lot of unwanted attention on them. They start to see it as a measurement and a prime metric to be judged by. I saw a lot of otherwise magnificent personalities bend because of how groups pressed them into roles.

> This is mostly another consequence of social media use by kids and teenagers. Why are 14 year-olds so worried about being attractive anyway?

I suspect that predates social media by centuries if not millennia.

I find it interesting that the study asked about being athletic (positive), attractive (positive), and unpopular (negative). Anecdotally the people I knew (at the time) who were drinking in middle school didn't fit into any of those boxes and actually I wouldnt have called attractive, unattractive, athletic, unathletic, popular, or unpopular. I do wonder if they had asked about a different set of three (or all six) dimensions whether the result would have changed.

> ...life is harder for [individuals] who are not attractive and for those who are not athletic.

This has probably been the case for every society of conscious creatures in history.

Which, given those are traditionally desirable traits, isn't that surprising.

I wasn’t attractive or athletic in high school, I spent all my time obsessed with programming, from basically grade 5 onwards; it didn’t make me popular and I not only didn’t fit in but was regularly bullied.

It’s turned into a fantastic career and the resilience I gained from being bullied made me a stronger and kinder person growing up.

Wouldn’t wish it on anyone, but long term I would say it personally did not harm me.

> and the resilience I gained from being bullied made me a stronger and kinder person growing up.

How do you teach resilience to a kid? What are some things you can do from they are toddlers to teach them?

Several fairly prominent psychologists have spent the past couple decades trying to figure out the answer to this question, but as far as I've read there is nothing close to a proven method or validated theory yet.

On the flip side, imagine the perils of attractive or athletic in middle school IE peaking!

I knew a few people whose peak was in middle or high school. Nice folks now but they yearn for their teens which is sad.

this will never change unless those affected work actively to change society to benefit them

for example work towards replacing sports programming on TV by science and engineering programming

This sounds like blaming video games for gun violence (especially since, at least in the summary, no such conclusion or link to television are mentioned).

"Replacing" one with the other presents a false dichotomy. There's nothing wrong with enjoying sports, either as an activity to participate in or to watch.

You're at least a decade late for TV to be the great corruptor of youth.

Paywalled but the study was done in a "large metropolitan area in Florida" and a "small community in Lithuania".

It's good that they tested in two places that are far apart, but it would be interesting to see how things vary by school and over time. When does it get better or worse?

The relevant paper appears to be behind a paywall here: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10964-023-01835-1.

The leader of group that wrote it has a pretty interesting publication history: https://psy.fau.edu/laursen-lab/publications.php. Some recent titles:

> Adolescents with few friend alternatives are particularly susceptible to influence from friends

> In defense of peer influence: The unheralded benefits of conformity

> Classroom seat proximity predicts friendship formation

> Off on the wrong foot: Task avoidance at the outset of primary school anticipates academic difficulties and declining likeability

> Being fun: An overlooked indicator of childhood social status

Uncharitably, this guy makes his money conducting studies that support common knowledge and then putting them behind paywalls. Charitably ... well, it would be easier to be charitable if I could see any of these papers.

Researchers get nothing from the paywalls and generally would prefer that they don’t exist.

As far as I can tell, Springer journals, like the Journal of Youth and Adolescence featured here, allow preprint sharing [1].

[1] https://www.springer.com/gp/open-access/preprint-sharing/167...

> this guy makes his money conducting studies that support common knowledge and then putting them behind paywalls

The money from paywalls goes entirely to the journals; academics don't get a cut.

And now those unfortunate to be both unattractive and athletic, have quickly dwindling opportunities with the increasing cost of college and advances in AI and automation. The intelligent, introverted, artistic are ducked.

Only if they share ypur defeatist attitude. I would wager most folks on HN were 'ducked', yet we seem to be thriving. Odd.

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