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Comment by tikhonj | Hacker News Reader

I'm really annoyed with ad hominems like "Anyone who thinks Apple only makes high-priced products has completely lost sense of reality." Statements like this basically amount to "everybody who disagrees with me is an idiot" and add nothing. All they do is annoy the reader.

I really wish people would avoid them both in blog posts and comments. I've been seeing some here on HN as well and really wish they would go away.

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It's not an ad hominem, it's a statement of fact. Apple has a reputation for producing expensive products which are distinguished mostly by industrial design and software rather than specs. It remains absolutely true of their peripherals and accessories, and true, though to a lesser extent, of their computers; however, in smartphones and tablets, Apple is the company that releases best-of-class hardware year after year at retail prices that their competitors have a hard time matching, let alone beating.

And anyone who can't admit that is ignoring reality, yeah.

Its accuracy or lack of accuracy doesn't really matter. Even if you are an idiot, my calling you an idiot is unwarranted.

no one called anyone an idiot

Claiming somebody has "completely lost sight of reality" is similar, differing only in degree and number of words.

Idiot is your word. Gruber said "lost sense of reality", which is what you would have to do to think that Apple only makes over-priced products. It is objectively not true.

"Idiot" is an ad hominem, but "has no sense of reality" isn't? Ad Hominem is an attack on the person, regardless of which specific attack it is. Being accurate or not has nothing to do with it.

If I say that you're wrong and a jew, I just made an ad hominem attack, regardless if you're actually a jew or not. That's completely uncalled for.

But he didn't say "idiot". You assumed that's what he meant to say...

Perhaps "idiot" was too strong a word. But my point is not about severity--it's about personal attacks in general. I did not mean to imply Gruber called anyone an idiot; rather, I was just illustrating how an ad hominem is an ad hominem regardless of accuracy.

> however, in smartphones and tablets, Apple is the company that releases best-of-class hardware year after year at retail prices that their competitors have a hard time matching, let alone beating.

Half-true. It is true that competitors who build equivalently high-end products as Apple have difficulty competing on price (Apple only sells high-end). But there are Android smart-phones that sell new for $100+ less than even an iPhone 4. (unlocked, non-contract prices!) Equally you can get a kindle fire for $200 less than an iPad 2.

It's just his dressed up version of saying "is wrong," by point of fact. And he is addressing a viewpoint that pundits have historically harbored.

Nice straw man.

Platform matters. It's his own website. Should he really not say what he thinks?

If you get annoyed by words online, you have a very unhappy life ahead of you.

>I'm really annoyed with ad hominems like "Anyone who thinks Apple only makes high-priced products has completely lost sense of reality." Statements like this basically amount to "everybody who disagrees with me is an idiot" and add nothing. All they do is annoy the reader

Agreed, and most of the people who say that live in Silicon Valley sipping a $5 latte in a Starbucks with a Macbook in tow.

Whereas, in countries like India, you could be working a great job, have all luxuries, even have a housemaid and the iPhone will easily set you back a months salary. Whereas, in the US, you can buy around 7 unlocked iphones with a month's salary. People's perspective is screwed up when they don't understand why everyone doesn't rush to buy Apple products. How many in the US or Europe would buy the iPhone if it was $5000 ?

I am not implying Apple should lower the prices but I think the people making that claim about them not being high priced products have completely lost their sense of reality.

OTOH, wasn't the iPad 1 the cheapest 10-inch tablet? So either all 10-inch tablets are luxuries or Apple is actually selling bargain-priced hardware compared to the competition.

I really hate the uninformed India/China argument when it comes to exemplifying overpriced Apple products. Turns out, there are a lot of iPhones in New Delhi and Beijing used by a rising middle class...they even pay full unsubsidized high-tax prices for them. FYI, its not $5000, its $820 for a iPhone 4s in Beijing.

Apple is already making a lot of money in China, and I'm sure they will eventually make money in India after they open up a few stores and get people off the gray market (where iPhones are sourced now). I'm dreading when the next iPad comes out in China, there will probably be yellow cow riots again.

>I really hate the uninformed India/China argument when it comes to exemplifying overpriced Apple products

Really?

>FYI, its not $5000, its $820 for a iPhone 4s in Beijing.

I said, IMAGINE if you had pay $5000 for an iPhone in the US or Europe. It is that expensive comparatively to someone in China or India.

I did not say or imply that they aren't making money, I was saying people who say they're overpriced havent "lost all touch with reality" as much the person making such an argument.

The point is that yes, they are overpriced for farmers and migrant workers in these countries, but they are definitely not overpriced for the middle class. The middle class in China is already 200 million people, think a similar number for India. These are huge markets for Apple, and they are doing just fine.

In fact, I think Apple is a bit cheaper in China compared to the luxury alternatives. Apple is very aggressive in China, and their markup is probably just totally due to taxes. This is compared to Samsung or even Lenovo, whose markup is much higher. Apple is actually cheaper than the alternatives, which is why the Chinese are buying their products up.

He is talking about the US.

If you pick arbitrary countries, even the lowest $200 laptop can be a year's salary.

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