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Comment by alibarber | Hacker News Reader

The customs charges bit is interesting because I don't really understand where they (as in UPS) stand on this.

I'm sure they're adding their own 'convenience' fee on top of the actual VAT or whatever they are collecting for the government too - but they don't have a contract with her to do this, so why do they expect her to pay it? The sender is the one who has contracted and paid UPS to deliver the parcel, but if this lady wants nothing to do with it - what are they trying to bill her for?

I understand they have paid the government tax on her behalf, but she didn't ask for them to do so. Surely by this logic, anyone in the world could bankrupt anyone else in any country other than their own by mailing a brick that they declare to be worth millions to the unlucky recipient?

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As someone who lives in Canada. You don’t have to pay in this circumstance as far as I can tell. This happened to me with UPS and they sent me to a collection agency who I then asked for proof of the debt. Haven’t heard a peep since. I think if it happens enough, UPS will require prepayment for future packages. You can also refuse delivery.

The real scam is the brokerage fees that they tack on to the taxes. For an item worth $40 cad you will end up paying about $20 in brokerage fees on top of taxes for ground packages. The only way to avoid it is to know that the package is coming and clear it yourself before it arrives, which can only be done in person if you aren’t a broker.

> which can only be done in person if you aren’t a broker

And IIRC there are something less than a couple dozen in-person locations nationwide where you can do so. Many people live hundreds of KMs from the nearest office. It’s infuriating - all you’re doing is filing some paperwork and giving a credit card payment. There’s no reason it couldn’t be done online.

> there are something less than a couple dozen in-person locations nationwide

About ⅔ of Canadians live within 2hrs drive of a Canadian Border Services office. This drops to about 56% of all Canadians if you limit it to a one-hour drive.

And there are a recorded 1,200 such manned offices across Canada. Not all of them handle self-clearing, mind you, as some are special-purpose offices that are not accessible to the public at large. But the vast majority do.

These CBS offices can be found at any border crossing, international airport, and harbour that has regularly-scheduled dockings of international ships, even cargo ships. There are 117 land border offices, 43 airport offices, and 393 marine offices in Canada alone.

Not all Canadians drive! But even so, a 2-hour round-trip drive is a lot of effort to save $20 on brokerage fees.

A four or even two hour round trip does not seem like a reasonable ask, especially given that this is a form that could easily be completed online. I don't have to drive hours to file my taxes.

> And there are a recorded 1,200 such manned offices across Canada. Not all of them handle self-clearing, mind you...

I was under the impression that self clearing specifically required an inland office, of which there are 50 across the country. I'm not alone in this - google "how to self clear goods Canada" and you'll get all sorts of advice saying you need very specific types of CBSA offices. I would also highlight that none of this is made particularly clear on the CBSA website - there's no page on "how to clear your goods" that I was able to find.

So 10 million people have to drive 2 hours plus to avoid paying shipper’s outrageous fees?

Seems like a broken system.

I haven't lived in Canada for a while, but what typically happened to me when living in Canada and ordering things from the US from private sellers or small companies was:

1. I chose the cheapest shipping option and would be hit by "customs fees" which was actually reasonable taxes or even no taxes for a small item, but with a brokerage fee added upon delivery. Small text was added to the invoice to make it plausibly seem like all fees were taxes to be blamed on the government, not on UPS or Fedex.

2. After realizing what brokerage fees were and doing research, I chose shipping which was a bit more expensive but included the paperwork and fees.

3. I would get hit with brokerage fees anyway because ebay shippers and small companies unilaterally changed shipping to the cheaper option for their own benefit to pocket the difference or for a perceived benefit to me.

4. As an added bonus, sometimes a private seller helpfully shipped without an invoice for the goods, or even put and inflated value in the shipping documents "just in case for insurance" and I would get hit with tax on the inflated value.

People using ebay or online shopping a lot back then (approx 2000-2012) would figure things out and know the blame was with sellers, UPS and Fedex. But I remember for years people around me placing the blame only on the Canadian government.

That used to happen a lot, so much I started refusing packages that arrived with a different vector than the one I selected. It's annoying because almost every e-commerce on earth didn't track in the order shipping options, but on the other hand you don't need to wait for shipment you can already work out for the tracking number if there's something wonky and cancel from there.

> You don’t have to pay in this circumstance as far as I can tell.

If you accept the package in a way where they pay the import taxes for you (you are not paying the government directly, they pay first then you pay them), it does indeed become your problem. They conducted a service on your behalf, with the expectation that you will compensate them, and the brokerage fees represent their labour in paying for you. Once or twice not paying those brokerage fees you could probably get away with, but eventually they’ll hold packages back until you have paid off all arrears + interest and penalties.

There is another way available to a small majority of Canadians:

If you live near a border crossing or international airport or harbour that regularly docks international ships, you will have a Canadian Border Services (CBS) office near you. This means you can self-clear any package, thereby avoiding brokerage fees.

The method is thus:

1. Refuse to accept the package from the shipper, tell them to hold it at the local distribution centre where you will pick it up later as you want to self-clear it personally. Ask for the Bill of Lading (BoL), which is a piece of paper attached to the package that defines the shipper, receiver, and contents of the package (usually itemized and $-valued). Some shippers call it something different, with other shippers you need to fill out an online form to be sent this document.

2. Within 24-48 hrs (2 work days), go to your local CBS office with your BoL, and if the BoL does not specify the value of the goods (preferably itemized), include any receipts or invoices you saved from the purchase. The CBS officers will calculate import taxes from those amounts and provide you with a BoL-linked invoice for that payment that includes all shipping numbers.

3. Provide to the shipping company the CBS form indicating that you have paid the import taxes directly to the government. This means that the shipping company will be reimbursed for its tax payment on that shipment, nullifying your obligation to pay the brokerage fees. Some (UPS) will demand that it be faxed in to a head office number (yes, even in 2023). Ask nicely, and the CBS officers may do it for you. Other shipping companies (FedEx) only need to see it when you pick up the package, as they’ll scan it into their records at that time.

Presto, no brokerage fees paid!

Good luck. And my condolences to anyone without a CBS office within easy travel distance.

> If you accept the package in a way where they pay the import taxes for you (you are not paying the government directly, they pay first then you pay them), it does indeed become your problem. They conducted a service on your behalf, with the expectation that you will compensate them, and the brokerage fees represent their labour in paying for you.

What happens is they drop a package on your porch without giving you a chance to refuse the package and clear it yourself. They have to give you that opportunity by law.

It would be similar to showing up at your house, cleaning your windows and then sending you bill. You never asked for that service, in the case of UPS you never agreed for them to act as your broker to clear your package.

I have never had a shipping company pay import taxes and then just drop the package off. They have always rung the doorbell to get me to accept it in person, or if I was not at home, tried delivery again another day. They come up to the door with credit card reader in hand, expecting you to make payment then and there, and will not give you the package if you don’t pay.

The exception is if CBS takes a long time to determine actual value, and therefore, taxes. Usually on used items with unclear but significant value. It’s happened a handful of times that they made delivery with no notice of brokerage fees or import taxes. Then, suddenly a few weeks to a month later, I got an invoice in the mail: they had paid the import taxes for me after delivery due to a delayed judgement by CBS, and so I was on the hook for both those taxes and brokerage fees. I still went to CBS with my BoL and paid the taxes directly to the government in order to avoid those brokerage fees.

> It would be similar to showing up at your house, cleaning your windows and then sending you bill. You never asked for that service, in the case of UPS you never agreed for them to act as your broker to clear your package.

But you did agree, by choosing them as a shipper. Certain fees can be implied as required in order to complete the transaction. In order to get your package across the border, the shipper needs to do what is necessary to get the package in your hands. Dealing with CBS and paying import taxes is the step needed to keep the package moving. If they waited for everyone to pay on their own then there would be billions of packages stuck at border warehouses, gumming up the works.

Other people can ship things you didn't ask for to your home without your consent, or not tell you in advance what shipping company they're using.

> But you did agree, by choosing them as a shipper.

The contracts are between the seller and the shipping company, and between the buyer and the seller. There's no contract between the buyer and the shipping company. And in this case where parcels are being randomly sent to an address un-asked-for, that is most definitely the case.

Read the article. This lady is receiving dozens of packages despite a note refusing delivery.

I have also received packages that were left behind when I wasn’t home. I received an invoice later and told them to show me where I accepted the package. Didn’t hear about it again.

In addition to what others have said, they are required by law to allow you to clear the package yourself, even if that means they need to keep the package on hold for days. Choosing UPS as a brokerage to handle this for you is a separate contract from the shipping itself, that is between the sender and UPS.

> even if that means they need to keep the package on hold for days.

Yes, but this would be at the final distribution points immediately prior to delivery, not at border warehouses right smack in the middle of the transport chain.

Local distribution points will only ever have a limited number of packages waiting to get picked up, even if a lot of people decide to self-clear; THAT volume is manageable. Border warehouses would end up with millions gumming up the works and getting in the way. That ISN’T manageable. Having things pile up at major transport nodes is a recipe for failure and system collapse.

Customs charges are an interesting thing. I had some stuff sent from Amazon US to myself in Finland back in the early 2000s. The package didn't arrive, they sent me another. That one showed up. About a month later, I got a notification from customs wanting duty on the original package. It wasn't much, I ended up with 2x of the items. Called Amazon, told them what was up, and they said just keep it. (Amazon customer service was much different back then).

In another instance, I bought an expensive item off EBay from Italy. It was sent, forms had to be filed with FedEx for import, etc. A few month later the Franchise Tax Board in California was all - "hey we want our cut (use tax)". It took a bit of time to track down, but I finally got a hold of a person and pointed out that the purchase was off ebay and sales tax was paid. I had to send the proof so of such. At this point they had already assessed penalties. With the proof it all went away, but the government does want their cut.=

I assume in the latter case the item was coming from Italy to you in California, not from Italy to you in Finland? If it was the latter case that would make for a truly bizarre story.

Yes, sorry it was CA.

Amazon will still reply "just keep it" and refund you to some return requests.

I got that just a few weeks ago when trying to return an item, from an automated system.

When this happens too many times though you’re flagged as a criminal and amazon will never ever refund anything ever again.

Ask me how I know, I lost over 400 EUR this way through no fault of my own and got stuck in an identical and irrelevant copy/paste CS email loop.

By "this" do you mean if someone is trying to discover this my "return probing"? I.e. opening return requests after every single purchase in the hopes of getting this response?

I can believe that, but I wasn't doing that, I keep most things I buy. I just happened to get this response for an item the other day.

FWIW it was a 7 Euro 2 meter long gas hose, the kind you use for a propane tank when camping.

I assume the restocking logistics didn't work out for whatever reason.

On second thought maybe they've got some hidden policies when it comes to certain products categories. The potential liability of reselling a gas-related product in this price range may not be worth it.

By “this” I mean refund without return. You can only have so many on your apparently, no matter the reason, before you’re flagged for (seemingly) ever.

> The potential liability of reselling a gas-related product in this price range may not be worth it.

Maybe. But it’s amazon we’re talking about, they might not care.

In the brick scenario, lets assume I am the brick sender and you are the recipient.

You would get a bill, and if you received the package, you could prove that it was a brick, and you didn’t order it, and thus the customs declaration form signed by me was fraudulent and you would not be liable to pay the duties.

If the duties were particularly high (enough to bankrupt you) it would be held at the nearest port agreed upon, and you be notified to come pay the duties before it’s delivered. Again thats where you would be able to show it wasn’t an item you wanted. Or you could refuse it all together and it would be up to be me to pay to get it back.

If this were a bigger problem the freight carrier would work to identify me and bring charges of committing various fraud.

As an aside shipping goods DAP (vs DDP) is risky for this reason—if buyers aren’t made aware if additional shipping costs at time of delivery they may refuse to pay in which case the seller is responsible for paying to get their item back, including additional storage fees.

How do you prove you didn't order something?

You don't keep it.

Sign something under penalty of perjury.

You don't really need to (although as another sibling commenter wrote, you might need a sworn statement or affidavit just establishing that you are claiming not to have ordered the thing). You just need the other party not to be able to prove the contrary. The burden of proof is on them. (IANAL)

Something like that actually happened to me: FedEx will not listen to you, not care, not even give you a way to raise such a request. If you persist in not paying, this will be sent to debt collection. If you persist in not paying, your credit score will be affected.

There is simply no part of FedEx customer service that would deal with it, or if there is, it's well hidden. Yes you could probably go to court over this, but this is almost certainly not worth the time and money.

Source: spent countless hours dealing with this problem in 2023.

False dichotomy. Don’t use customer service; nor “go to court.” Just send them a legal Cease and Desist letter re: their making of fraudulent charges against you.

The real “customer service” department of any corporation is their legal department. Someone will personally look into your case in response to a legal notice, I promise you. And, in the process of determining whether your claim has standing, they’ll ask the people who can actually address it — and boom, your problem will go away.

The whole thing is weird to me. I would have assumed that COD would require a signature from the recipient as an agreement to accept the charges. It's bizarre that UPS either thinks they can or actually can just drop packages off and presume the recipient agrees to the charges.

Welcome to Canada!

FedEx and DHL does this crap too.

A lot of the fee is probably brokerage fees rather than the actual taxes.

I have my own tale to tell here. A couple years ago, someone got hold of my credit card info and used it to order some expensive clothing from an online store in Italy. If I recall correctly, it was about 1800 euros. It was actually the bank that alerted me, as this was a complete break with my purchase habits. Anyway, I canceled the card, disputed the charges, and got the money back.

Several months later I got a letter in the (paper) mail from DHL regarding an unpaid bill for VAT that they had paid on a package I had received from them. Long story short, it turns out the thieves had got the expensive clothes shipped to an address about 500 km from where I live, with my name on it (I live in Norway, BTW). DHL had paid the VAT and delivered the package to “me” somehow. I disputed this, of course, and told them about the credit card issue. After a bit of back and forth, they told me I had to file a police report. I did so, sent them a copy, and they finally relented and did not pursue the issue further. But they also informed me that in the future, if a package came to me, I would have to pay the VAT/customs ahead of receiving the package. Which is fine with me.

This is something I also don't understand. I'm in Switzerland, which is small, so we order a lot from outside the country. All of the bg courier services add a delivery fee - but the seller already paid for shipping? There are a few services (Border Free comes to mind) that work, but otherwise we try to get shipping by the postal system. Germany, of course, has literally outsourced their postal system to DHL :-(

But you don’t have to pay import duties and VAT if you buy from EU countries?

e.g. these day if I order anything from the UK (to an EU country) the package gets stuck in customs and I have to pay VAT(20%) + Import duty (optional depending on product type/value) + random service fee.

In CH the first 62.- is free and after that you pay VAT. Which also means that for 5.- VAT they add a racket fee of 20—30.- on top for their efforts.

Yes this is something that infuriated me too. Especially that the “paper pushing fee” is often more than the actual VAT due, and I live 5 min away from the federal customs office.

But I checked all I could and in Switzerland you’re not allowed to take the option of clearing the package yourself and so have to pay the courier’s racket.

The beauty of it is that how expensive the fee is depends on the level of service the sender picked, and you don’t even know how much the fee will be because they drop the parcel off and send you a bill a couple weeks later.

I never order abroad anymore and when I’m forced to, I only do it if they’ll ship through the regular post office as Swiss post is the least predatory in their “handling fees”… but like everything in CH: caveat emptor.

Custom charges sound weird. But I take they are not held by customs under chargers are paid like they do here. And at that point she could refuse or point out they are not hers and they would eventually destroy them.

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