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Comment by gdsdfe | Hacker News Reader

that's more what I'm payed as a senior dev ... maybe I should change career

A lot of numbers are being thrown around in the article. $170,000 a year and Drivers discussing their hourly pay of $40 or more routinely make national headlines. and Prior to the new deal, the company said drivers earned about $95,000 in pay annually on average or about $42 an hour, and another $50,000 in benefits and raised starting pay for part-time staff to $21 an hour and the new contract would provide a pay boost of $2.50 an hour this year and $7.50 an hour over the five years of the deal.

The $170k number comes from the employer, and the article expresses no curiosity about which end of the confidence interval at the end of 5 years that benefits fall on. Future cost-of-labor numbers from the employer may incorporate burden and liability forecasts as well, as those are considered to be a portion of labor expense when discussing compensation. The article also seems to be doing its own math to arrive at hourly rates, naively assuming that an entire amount is paid compensation and doesn't include benefits or overtime.

The base rate being increased from (apparently?) $18.50 to $21 is a red flag that should have us asking critical questions. Delivery driving is destructive to one's body and dangerous. $18.50/hour is a ruinous rate for work that's not unlikely to change the usefulness of your body.

Does your sense of your senior dev pay include considering your benefits? Back when I was an underpaid junior dev, I once had my employer go and attempt to convince the software devs that we were making money than we thought via a statement outlining benefits. It more than doubled my salary... but most of it would come with any software job that wasn't self-employment/contract work.

Or participate in collective bargaining!

Just a side thought, but how do the collective bargaining protections work in the age of automation? Basically like robots as scabs or permanent replacements?

If your work could be fully automated - you wouldn’t have a job right now and collective bargaining wouldn’t be relevant.

> If your work could be fully automated - you wouldn’t have a job right now

To nitpick this - there's a non trivial up-front cost associated with automation. As such using (well, abusing) people is sometimes just plain cheaper than the amortized costs of automating.

Let's be honest, they're probably doing more important work. But keep in mind this is including all costs of benefits, etc. If you're making less than that as a senior dev in the US you might just need to change job not career

$170 - $50 for benefits is $120K for base pay. Senior Devs in the US earn on average about $103K. You might be surprised at the number of developers out there earning normal non-FAANG salaries located in smaller cities. But I agree, the drivers are delivering more value, literally.

Value delivered is meaningless, otherwise garbage collectors would be paid millions.

What matters is scarcity of resources, be it commodities, or human skill!

In that case, we better keep scaring off newbies from coding

That's part of what guilds were for.

No need for dramatic responses. If you JUST want money you can go make more in the trades.

For the work we do as software engineers we are beyond well compensated.

speak for yourself. Local jobs (salary is monthly obviously):

  Hiring part time staff:
  - java script 6 people
  - Flutter Developer 3
  Working hours: 8:00am -5:00pm can negotiate
  Salary : 300$-700$

Not sure what full-time hours are, I guess 996 or whatever.

Sorry, I don't understand your comment.

SWE does not pay very well everywhere.

Oh I see, responding to my "we are beyond well compensated". Sorry. Thanks for clarifying.

Yes, I was definitely speaking from the U.S. perspective (typical american stereotype).

Note that benefits are valued at at least $50k/year in this number.

The company might be doing some funny math with the value of the benefits: $50,000. That could include things you might never use, like IVF assistance.

My wife is a teacher in NC. We are on her insurance with the state health plan for a whole family. We pay $700/mo for our portion on the 80/20 plan.

I would say they likely do pay $30k+ per employee and 50k isnt a big stretch when you count every benefit as you stated.

https://www.shpnc.org/documents/open-enrollment-documents/sh...

That is the beauty of employer subsidized benefits with preferential tax treatment.

The worker cannot easily compare compensation offered by different employers, so they are less likely to leave. And bigger/more profitable businesses can afford to hire professionals to analyze and implement these benefit plans, while small businesses are left competing for 2nd tier employees since they cannot afford that overhead.

Why someone gets health insurance and retirement savings with pre tax money if their employer subsidizes it and why someone has to pay for health insurance and retirement savings with post tax money if their employer does not subsidize it is a pretty great injustice that neither party is interested in addressing.

One more reason healthcare needs to be divorced from employment.

My company sends out an amount of the value of benefits. For me it was around $30K. It includes all paid holidays and PTO, health care, 401K contributions, and social security contributions.

I'm not sure I can put a dollar cost on the theoretical toll that a package delivery job puts on your body versus being a dev.

Most devs are very sedentary. That puts an enormous toll on the body. Which is worse? I don't know, but neither is great.

Interesting. I too am a senior dev and I really don't feel the need to compare. I'm doing something I'm good at and I'm compensated well for it. I am getting mine, and I want everyone else to get theirs too. It's not a race. It's not a competition. It's not about being/feeling important.

Do you want back pain and constant work for 10 hours?

I don’t. And I did make way more. But keep in mind that physical labor jobs are continuous work and hard on the body. As a swe I could work an hour, go for a walk to think, work another 2 hours, play ping pong with the PM while we discuss something, and enjoy multiples in RSUs. Just saying.

Most of the time drivers are.. driving. And the drivers have hand carts for larger or heavier items (which still have significant limits), and most packages are the size of a hard cover book. So, really, almost all of the job is driving with occasional chances to stretch your legs and deliver a small package. And the job is average of about 43 hours a week (they have very exact data on this), which is probably less than you put in and definitely not 10 hours/day.

Sounds like you have a pretty nice SWE job, perhaps in the valley? But your experience is not typical.

Did a google search for ups driver downsides and literally every result is “I have chronic back pain” and a workers compensation for physical injuries.

I’m sure there are downsides to swe but I’ve met swe/tech people who are 65+ and super sharp and innovative.

Have you ever met a 65 yo UPS driver? Most drivers seem young.

You can also do what the UPS drivers did by unionizing and negotiating to keep a larger share of the fruit of your labor.

Doing the math from the article, they'll be at an average of $120k in wages for an average of around 43 hours a week.

If you are doing below that as a dev, probably worth first changing companies.

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