Why Sam Altman wants to scan two billion eyes | Hacker News Reader

Why Sam Altman wants to scan two billion eyes

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Is it just me or does Worldcoin just seem like a massive ploy to get one's hands on a ton of biometric data? Scan your eyes and get $20 in funny money that may or may not be redeemable later. The coin will crash and burn like all the others leaving Sam with a treasure trove of biometrics data to do whatever he wants with.

What else can it be, given that is necessary step of their plan? At a minimum, the biometric data could support the company's existence. Coins and whatever are built upon this data. It used to be just pageviews/eyeballs, now it is literal eyeballs.

To what end, though? I can't claim you are wrong, but I just don't see the benefit without resorting to ludicrous movie plots that largely don't hold up outside of entertainment value.

The entirety of "big data" is built on get data->???->profit.

That's what's always been behind the push for ai, the hope that these ML programs can extract gold from the ocean.

Right, but most "big data" money is made from selling people tools to process data. Few seem to have any amazing use case that benefits from a ton of data. LLMs come to mind, but that is from a very different type of data, all told. Even medical data is only useful if you have a ton more data per person.

Iris identification is just not that useful? Even in movies, the goal is to get a high value target's iris to fake an entry. But, while entertaining in movies, this is not really a thing that makes any sense at a mass level. Is it?

Big data is built on "get data -> increase sales -> profit". The entire discipline is built over the idea of extending a few well known experiences from the 90's and 00's.

Almost the entire thing is bullshit, of course, but the entire pipeline was always well specified.

What's funny is that in the crypto world, projects that have similar tokenomics as Worldcoin were often called "Sam coins" - low float, high market cap, and a vesting schedule that allows the founding team to relentlessly dump on speculators and holders.

Trouble is, the Sam in question with these coins was Sam Bankman-Fried

I've never heard that term before, usually such coins are called shitcoins. And while I'm not denying SBF did that with his coin, he certainly didn't pioneer it; XRP has been doing it for years before SBF got into crypto.

The purpose of the scanning is to just have a different talking point so people will buy the coin. It is a scam like all the others. If they'd just launched it without scanning, would anybody be interested in buying it or even talking about it?

The data on its own doesn't seem valuable. Having a "real human / really who they claim to be" authentication API that internet companies rely on for all sorts of things seems valuable. I assumed that was the goal, to create such a service.

I wonder if it's a ploy to either secure a monopoly on iris-scanning biometrics, or poison the market for everyone else?

Either they have a monopoly on it and it's all good (it's fine for them to have the data since they are verifier anyway), or if not, then it makes sure no other company can exist in this space since they have a massive database of high-resolution biometrics that could presumably allow to bypass any competitor's product, making it a non-starter.

I may be wrong, but isn’t Worldcoin using zero knowledge proofs in their system? It would mean that nobody has access to the private data behind them - not even WC.

...if you take them at their word. Oh, and ignore the bit where they will give you extra money if you agree to let them keep your biometric data on file to "improve their algorithm".

> isn’t Worldcoin using zero knowledge proofs in their system? It would mean that nobody has access to the private data behind them - not even WC.

No, it wouldn't mean that. It would only mean that entities who verify the zero knowledge proofs do not learn anything about the data except that it satisfies the proved property.

It's definitely not only you

> The capture of biometric data has become common in contexts of migration, where iris-scanning is a precondition to receiving humanitarian aid. In 2019, the United Nations World Food Program partnered with the firm Palantir to optimize these operations, which today affect 160 million people in 120 countries.

Haha what in the hell

Not that crazy - corruption and malfeasance are primary risks to your effective yield when trying to distribute aid like that. Middle-men and middle-women inevitably appear, one to one authentication is one way to keep them away.

One to one authentication is a middleman.

This just moves the puck. No chance in hell this technology is not abused.

It moves the puck… to the United Nations. I fail to see the problem here.

The United Nations might not be as clear of corruption as you might think. If you've spent any time in the global public health apparatus, you probably know how bad it is (this is my exposure to UN initiatives). I don't think public health is special, and I'm sure most of the other UN-sponsored global projects have also had to line a lot of pockets.

The problem is the "what", not the "who".

The problem as I see it is the consolidation of power. Add to that instant global enforcement along with the current state of surveillance, an elite group of people have an insane amount of control.

The UN is not the most effective and corruption-free organization I know of.

> Middle-men and middle-women inevitably appear ...

So, Palantir is the middle-er... person in this context?

Something about 'the devil you know', I guess. Don't blame me, I'm not in charge of the world.

but i hope you can appreciate the ugliness of a situation were a shady for-profit org decides if you get someting to eat and is incentivised to err on the side of fraud-prevention

Underdeveloped countries remain underdeveloped precisely because of widespread corruption. This kind of authentication is invasive but it makes sense in this context.

It kinda sounds like increasing from AES-128 to AES-256 as a mitigation when the actual threat is social engineering.

So people need to provide retinal scans now - and how does that prevent thugs from robbing/coercing them shortly after?

The problem being solved here is a single person taking an aid package several times for reselling. You can't solve everything, I guess?

This makes sense and is a really cool application of the technology.

It doesn't solve the issue of organised crime in those countries rounding up multiple people to get their aid package under duress to resell.

Is the corruption by individuals greater than the corruption of the gangs running things?

The proposed solution ignores the $5 wrench attack.

I am finding it increasingly difficult to take the world seriously.

What a joke.

They need to know if you have honest eyes

> United Nations World Food Program partnered with the firm Palantir

Woah. Why in the world would they be willing to partner with Palantir? They're amongst the scummiest of scumbag companies.

I agree but also feel like entities like the UN are pretty much the entire customer base for Palantir. Or at least, they're not a huge jump from, say, the DoD, whatever your beliefs about either are.

> United Nations World Food Program

I just assumed that, if nothing else, that program would want to avoid anything that reflects badly on them.

Don’t worry! It runs on the blockchain and steals refugees’ biometric data, too: https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/04/12/143410/inside-th...

> The company that developed this for Altman is called Tools for Humanity. Worldcoin, meanwhile, operates as a registered foundation in the Cayman Islands, a tax haven.

Thanks, all I had to know. Unsurprising.

> EL PAÍS has attempted to obtain the tax status of Tools for Humanity through various channels, without obtaining a response.

Unsurprising.

Yet another currency scam which can be safely added to the current blocklist of shitcoin/altcoin/blockchain/cryptocurrency.

still a lot of rubes to hustle for alt-coins

with another of his companies, which is registered in the Cayman Islands

I had to look this up [1]... was curious why all the virtual currencies register in the Cayman Islands. It seems their government provides a lot of protection and no taxation.

[1] - https://www.globallegalinsights.com/practice-areas/blockchai...

Not surprising, companies go where they get favourable treadment. Same reason why Apple is run out of a PO box in Ireland

Scam Altman at it again, after scamming all donations for OpenAI and making it ClosedAI shortly after

There's so many angles of this that feel uncomfortable to me. ChatGPT and Open AI were released ahead of Sam's talks with regulators to allow for an organic and unregulated response to - and use of, these tools. This included producing examples of the threats to authorship and ease-of-access to sophisticated language and programming help for bad actors.

Altman now holds in his other hand an antidote to this in the form of a new technology that requires biometric data on a global scale, creates crypto noise for wealth generation for him and investors, and doesn't actually promise much beyond creating an inevitable leak of biometric data.

Altman is a long term thinker, and his decisions about Open AI were clearly contributing to the production of a landscape that was ready for WorldCoin. Given the data implications of that - it all makes me feel really uncomfortable!

This doesn't even necessarily reflect on his personal ambitions with the project - the outcomes are enough to assess it with.

This is one of the creepiest things I've ever heard of.

All of the worldcoin stuff is creepy, and a terrible idea. Potentially profitable though!

I think it's more about power and influence then money at that point.

Everyone is upset at the eye scanning but honestly I have no idea how this could actually be exploited for evil. Like is he going to turn around and sell personal data on the world's poorest people? What would anyone do with that?

I still can't get past the fantasy economics of crypto. Bitcoin and Eth caught lightning in a bottle and fueled a wild speculative frenzy that made some people a lot of money but they have utterly failed as currencies. No one has come within 1000 miles of dethroning USD with crypto, specie or even a rival fiat. What the hell is issuing Worldcoins supposed to do for anyone?

There are narratives about, for example, a genocidal government using the iris scans to trace social media posts back to the people who make them.

Wouldn't asymmetric cryptography be better suited for building proofs of identity for government transfers?

  you must allow a metallic sphere to look at you with its eye and generate a “personality test.” The proof is then associated with the QR code and the app becomes a passport called World ID.

  [...]

  Altman claims that the digital passports and wallets will be essential when general artificial intelligence (AI) has surpassed ours and unemployed humans need to receive a universal income.

What happens if the biometric information is stolen? Wouldn't that make it possible for another human or for AGI to impersonate someone, with no possibility of revoking the biometric proof of identity?

It already is and you can buy World IDs for like... $20? $30? from Chinese marketplaces.[1]

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/05/24/black-market-for-...

"Sellers were offering KYC verifications for the World App, which offers wallet and ID services. The credentials often come from developing countries like Cambodia and Kenya, according to social media posts."

How many body parts can be scanned for a unique fingerprint? I can see at least another five or six coins out of this idea, some pretty shocking :-)

"Hey! Can I scan your balls in exchange for some cryptocurrency?"

You are cutting your TAM by at least 50%.

Not if each one gets a separate id.

https://www.businessinsider.com/scientists-designed-a-smart-...

Wikifeet on the blockchain

brain activity

Anyone else find it disgusting how crypto (btc) was created to give people freedom from centralized authorities and then centralized companies like this do the complete opposite?

Here's an article going more in depth about the shadiness of this company:

https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/04/06/1048981/worldcoi...

And a quote at the end of the article by Edward Snowden:

“Don’t catalogue eyeballs. Don’t use biometrics for anti-fraud. In fact, don’t use biometrics for anything. The human body is not a ticket-punch.”

Vitalik Buterin wrote a blogpost "What do I think about biometric proof of personhood?" [https://vitalik.ca/general/2023/07/24/biometric.html] which seems pretty positive about the project, they apparently have a careful approach to privacy issues.

Take a look at how well India's biometric Aadhaar program is doing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aadhaar#Impediments_and_other_...

Becuse he's a freak, who the fuck scans people's eyes

A few years ago most people would have said the same about fingerprint reading or face scanning, and yet we're living in a world where it is completely standard now

That isn't a success; it indicates a sick society. One that is profitable for Y combinator though.

Keeping the data offline, on device. That's the big difference. I don't consent to using such online. No, not for captchas or payment either. Because 2FA/MFA and passport copy is suffice for opening bank account and authenticating with it. For payment, IBAN transfer is also suffice.

Altman is banking on the hype of those who are cynical on AI/ML hype dystopia.

> we're living in a world where it is completely standard now

No it isn't. Ew. If an employer asked to fingerprint me I'd tell them where to stick their scanner.

You know what is "completely standard" now? Governments and corporations leaking terabytes of private information, with barely a shred of accountability.

We need to be pulling this in the exact opposite direction, not normalizing it; and not adding retina scans to the list of insecure biometric data.

Sam Altman needs a swift reality slap.

>If an employer asked to fingerprint me I'd tell them where to stick their scanner.

They don't need to, because your employer probably asked you for a form of biometric ID.

I've never once had an employer ask me for such a thing.

Weird. Every job I've had has asked for my passport (UK) or work permit (US).

I'm in the US, and every employer has asked me for proof that I can legally work in the US. But none of the proof I provide involves biometric data (unless you count the photo on my driver's license as "biometric data"). But I'm a citizen, and I could easily imagine that the requirements might be more strict for noncitizens.

> If an employer asked to fingerprint me I'd tell them where to stick their scanner.

There are some situations where this may be ok. Working for the police themselves as an example. ;)

Mass collection of fingerprints or face scans from people is not standard.

It is probably more standard than you realize? Quick search shows over 14 million are enrolled in the airport program that requires iris scanning, as well as fingerprints.

Are you talking about the US? 14 million out of a population of 340 million doesn't sound very standard to me.

Yes, US. And agreed it isn't majority, is why I gave the number. Should have made that clearer.

Probably better to look at passport, if we are only talking about fingerprints. And that is about half of the US? Still not a majority, but I assume a lot of "standard" things aren't majority. I was pointing out that it is getting more widespread.

I know the US hates IDs, rightfully, but fingerprints and photo ID is common in less free parts of the world. Wait until you hear about mandatory DNA sampling!

I still say the same about those things, and I don't willingly allow others to read my fingerprints or scan my face. Fortunately, I'm almost never asked -- so it's not exactly "standard".

The Precrime police in Minority Report

I think the question should be, why the fuck do people let their eyes scanned.

The $50. That's quite a lot of money to most people.

Who? The US in Iraq and Afghanistan, for example.

https://www.context.news/digital-rights/why-does-the-us-stil...

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