Developers are building communities that act as their own miniature power grids

Anker knows batteries and their LiFePO4 batteries are solid stuff (as are their traditional lithium cells).

Even if you prefer a US maker, competition will help lower prices.

I agree on being careful with China goods in general, but Anker is one of the very few very trustworthy brands out there. IIRC, the only fuck-up regarding batteries they did was with the 535 power banks, and they handled that one very solidly [1].

[1] https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/anker-recalls-some-535-p...

Pretty strange view, when you consider that China still is the workbench of the world.

Why did you choose the Enphase system versus any of the others? How much capacity did you install and is it upgradeable?

You don't move the loads to the sub panel. You make a new main panel, move the feed to that, and turn the old main panel into a sub panel. Much easier.

You don’t need an isolation switch if you use a sol ark 15k or EG4 18k, you can just tie the grid straight in and they have isolation built in if the grid goes down.

"To do this, a switch needs to physically disconnect the utility meter from the main loads panel ... this is the hard part.

It doesn't need to be.

You can just use a physical interlock and toggle between utility breaker and (any input you want) breaker.

You can do this on an integrated meter panel.

This is a dead-simple configuration that you can comprehend - and verify - with your own eyes.

The lock-out switch is NEC compliant, utility approved, etc.:

https://www.amazon.com/Generator-Interlock-Compatible-Homeli...

Yes, you do lose all power for a second or two but ... so much simpler and comprehensible than an ATX solution.

If you want something crazier, try doing online backup. So that you don't get any power dropouts.

its pretty easy to understand when you spend significant time in both.

european cities: typically built for density. I'm never more than a 10 minuite walk to a grocery store. I can hop on a train or tram to get to work and I can usually stop to get groceries for the day on the way. if you're in a city like athens, you can get fresh fish and meat. was probably dreaming of finding a mate or eating fresh acorns on the other side of the pasture barely a day ago.

USA: Its a hellish landscape of urban sprawl. want to get sone milk or eggs? its illegal in most place for there to exist a grocery store within walking distance. be prepared to walk along the side of a busy road to get to a convenience store which might have what you are looking for. maybe there's a sidewalk if you're lucky. Every damn trip requires a car. your work place is probably 30 min drive minimum. there is no other way to get to work. since getting to the store requires effort, you're going to go get a week's worth of groceries to save time. fresh meat? nah, killed weeks ago in a centralized slaughter house and shipped accross the country after a life of being fed corn farmed with chemical fertilizers and shipped to the animals in temperature controlled facilities. better keep a large fridge to hold it all. wouldn't want it to spoil before you eat it.

you literally can't live in the USA without increasing your consumption. its built into the dna of our infrastructure.

I would imagine in the southern states where it's 40 degrees C+ every day for 3 months-4 months or more on end the heatpump (aka reverse cycle a/c) is basically kept on constantly. Let's say it draws 1kw on average, that's 24kwh right there. They actually draw more than that. There's no way around it if you want to live comfortably. But I think the whole society is designed so much around driving everywhere and living in detached houses that the low hanging fruit is actually to install solar/batteries for these guys.

Developers won't make homes below a certain square footage because it's not profitable for them. That means that there will always be an amount of square footage that will need to be cooled and warmed, despite the space being largely unused.

Most people, like the couple in this article, aren't buying green 1350sqft homes, they're buying 2500 sqft McMansions because those are what are available in the market.

I believe that US households on average get a higher percent of their energy from electricity than do European households. For a proper comparison we need to compare energy use, not electricity use.

The average US household used 77 million BTU of energy in 2015 [1]. That's 1.94 TOE (tons of oil equivalent).

The EU average in 2014 was 1.3 TOE. It ranged from a little under 0.5 (Malta) to around 2.7 (Luxembourg) [2]. UK and Germany were around 1.4, France around 1.7, Italy around 1.9. Belgium was just under 2.

[1] https://rpsc.energy.gov/energy-data-facts

[2] https://www.enerdata.net/publications/executive-briefing/hou...

> If you take the reasoning one step back, wouldn't it be easier to optimize the consumption side (low hanging fruit) in favour if optimizing the cost per unit of energy?

Yes, absolutely.

In general, if you talk to a good solar sales rep, they'll first ask if you have done energy efficiency projects. If you have good quality windows, insulation, appliances, etc, not only are you going to be more efficient up front but you'll need a smaller array+battery overall.

There are also tax benefits for doing some of those projects together so you get some upside there too.

I don’t think so? Household Cost = Total Cost / Households, Household Duration = Capacity / (Household Usage * Households), Houshold*2 would half both.

Islands tend to have good sun exposure, minimal cloud cover, and little in the way of alternatives. Of course they do solar there.

Doing solar in places that perhaps aren't as sunny, and which could easily connect to a grid, is newsworthy.

Things like that are incredibly overpriced, you're paying almost $1000 per KWH of capacity.

> What are some examples of this type of decentralization scenario playing out before?

I am not very knowledgeable about this, but the public/private school debate seems to be one possibility.

> A ban on gas stoves would only affect rich people for the most part.

And professional kitchens.

For the record I agree with phasing them out but I can see restaurant chefs fighting hard against it.

Indication stoves are claimed to be as good as gas. However the cheapest induction stove in the US is 3x the price of the cheapest gas or electric. And if you go stove shopping you with find lots of options for gas or regular electric, but often only one induction model - if you want some combination of features and are willing to pay - you often still can't get it with induction. (dual ovens, number of burners, burner configuration, non-standard widths - there are lots of options that are at least interesting to someone who is cooking)

When it comes to cooking, non-induction electric stoves are a downgrade from gas stoves, even if they're the same price. Induction stoves are at least an upgrade in some respects, but a downgrade in terms of cookware compatibility. Phasing out gas stoves might be the future, but I wouldn't describe it as something that only affects rich people.

Sounds like it would effect 1/3 of US households

Moving from gas stove to induction electric stove is trivial. Upgrading from water and space heater to heat pump is neither simple nor cheap.

Roofs generally last for 30 years. In my neighborhood at least, which was all built-out in a 3 year period in the mid-1970s, most of the roofs were replaced about 10-15 years ago (they're rated for 30 years, but everyone pushes their luck as far as possible). Because they replaced their roof pre-~2014 it wasn't cheap or common to do so and thus very little solar was installed at that point.

Those who have had their roof replaced in the last 5-7 years went ahead and put solar on top. My guess would be that when the neighborhood "cycles" through new roofs again in ~15 years, more than half will elect to put in solar or solar/battery combo. We are due for a new roof in 2-3 years and plan on doing solar at that time, and possibly even battery.

> opt out of providing stuff for poor people to make a political point.

I would certainly hope my state isn’t giving out tax-payer funded luxury stoves.

There is no such thing as “free” here.

Off-topic but I just don't get why we means-test this. So what if 1% of Americans get $840 so long as the other 99% also get $840 towards a new stove. Surely the cost of means testing and administration is more than 1%?

So far I believe only one state has opted out, Florida. It's not really comparable to opting out of expanded Medicaid because at least with expanded Medicaid a state could make a somewhat colorable non-political argument for not participating.

Under the ACA Medicaid expansion the federal government covered 90% of the cost and the state covered 10% of the cost. I believe some of the states claimed that they could not afford that 10%.

With the energy efficiency rebates under the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) and the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law (BIL) each state has to administer the rebates for that state's consumers, but the allows the states to use a portion of their gran for for the cost of that, including hiring staff.

So basically a state just has to apply, get the administrative money to cover setting up a program to distribute the rebates, then get their share of the IRA and BIL money and distribute it.

In Florida deSantis used his veto to block authorization for the state to get and use the $5 million portion of their grant that would be for administration and so Florida residents will not be getting the $174 million in energy efficiency improvement rebates, or the $173 million in appliance rebates, or the $7 million for a training program for electrification contracts, or other smaller grants from those laws. All in all, Florida is turning down $377 million.

deSantis has not given a reason, but it is likely part of his "Fight Back Against the Woke Agenda" theme he's basing his campaign on. Reducing emissions and increasing energy efficiency is "woke" in current far right circle.

Other recent actions taken in his fight against "woke"ness are tax breaks for purchasing gas stoves and killing a bill that would have directed state agencies to consider lifetime cost of ownership when purchasing cars.

> natural gas has to be removed from the market as the supply of gas is finite

I'd drop this argument your other points are good but while gas might technically be finite it's not on any timescale that matters here.

If you worry about electricity going down you can buy a portable generator powerful enough to run at least some of the stove. Odds are you have never had your electric stove using the full power it can in theory consume (all burners on high and the oven heating), so long as your actual use is less than the stove needs this works.

Heat pumps are great, but it sometimes gets cold enough where I live that they are less efficient than a modern gas furnace. (not every year, but still often enough that I need to plan on those days or my pipes will freeze)

Banning natural gas appliances doesn't stop natural gas production. It's a byproduct of oil production. Fly over any oil field, and you'll see natural gas being burned as a waste product everywhere. Only when natural gas prices go up do oil companies start capturing it to sell.

Until someone introduces a bidding mechanism, anyway.

"Man, we had no power for DAYS and I only got $14.75 from that stupid electric grid thing"

I'm willing to bet most people on here have never actually experienced living with decentralized infrastructure, and only have an abstract understanding of what it entails. I live on the edge of a state forest where the only centralized service we have is electricity (we still have solar). We have gas bottles for cooking and hot water, and when one runs out we switch it over and get it replaced. For sewerage we get the septic tank pumped, and for water we collect rainwater. If we have a dry year or use too much, we have to pay for water cartage. If the pump goes down, I'm either fixing it myself or paying someone else to fix it on short notice.

Now, I chose this and it's how I grew up, so I wouldn't have it any other way. But the beauty of centralized systems is that they offset these burdens to an authority that handles all of that for you. If I were unable to pay for a new pump, well, I would have no water. A centralized system paid for by taxes guarantees that everyone will always have access to water under fairly mild conditions.

The failure of centralized systems and people resorting to locally decentralized solutions isn't indicative of decentralized solutions being better, but more a failure of governance and bureaucracy. I mean, there's a reason we all moved from decentralized systems (like getting water from a well) to centralized systems in the first place. That's not to say that decentralized anything doesn't also have advantages, only that the distinction really matters, and people should be sure of what it is they're advocating for when they want to decentralize infrastructure like electricity and water that are vital for survival.

It's unhelpful to link to Google searches as sources; the first page of results is usually just news or blog articles very thin on facts.

The risks to health of natural gas stoves (basically, just the production of NO2 and particulate matter) are almost all due to insufficient ventilation. Houses will need more and better (active) ventilation going forward anyway, as increasing insulation standards for homes mean they don't "breath" as much as they used to. So there's other ways to mitigate those health risks that don't involve banning something that many people enjoy using.

Poor people as a whole indeed do have overall worth health than rich people, but switching to electric stoves won't move the needle almost at all. Gas stoves are most linked to pediatric asthma[0], but in terms of stuff that affect poor people more than rich people, that's hypertension, arthritis, smoking, and obesity[1], none of which care what kind of stove you cook with at home.

[0]: https://rmi.org/gas-stoves-health-climate-asthma-risk/

[1]: https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2016/16_0088.htm

Here is a nice link to a university microgrid explanation [0]. They claim that it allows them to isolate the failure (external or internal) and continue to provide power to the rest of the campus in 1/10 of a second:

> Prior to the installation of the microgrid, Illinois Tech experienced three or more power outages each year, at a cost of up to $500,000 annually in restoration expenses, lost productivity, and ruined experiments that often cannot be recovered.

[0] https://www.iit.edu/microgrid

And in a sane world, few would have a physical internet connection unless you’re really pushing serious data (which probably doesn’t need to be from home anyway).

I’ve toyed with shutting my router and modem at night on a timer because it’s a waste of 15-20w of electricity for nothing.

Did PGE pay for powerwall and installation?

You generally don't stand a chance in a HOA if you're not a pensioner who has the time to actually go to meetings and wad through paperwork.

HOAs are in many cases a collection of opinionated amateurs making binding decisions on behalf of their disinterested neighbors. See also 'special assessments' And that's the best case scenario. HOAs can get a tad 'authoritarian' at least according to John Oliver: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qrizmAo17Os&pp=ygUPam9obiBvbGl...

This has been my stance on the issue, but I am just pessimistic for the first generation of HOA leadership because it tends to attract nosy, controlling busybodies that love draconian rules. It’s not until those people die off or move where new leadership has an opportunity to flourish.

Additionally, my statement was more generalized view of how it could be used, obviously if a homeowner finds themselves in this situation, the strategy would be to gather neighbors support and demand it to be changed or just do a hostile takeover of the HOA.

Or I could simply never, ever buy a home with an HOA, unless it's a condo.

Why on earth would I willingly give up the rights to do what I wish with my own property as long as I follow city codes?

...and no, 'property values' don't cut it. I don't even consider my home when factoring my productive net worth.

Sure, if I have time. The point of a republic form of government is that you vote every few years and then live your life. While it does take time to figure out who to vote for you don't have to figure out every petty issue, some of which you don't even care about (in a pure democracy you have to decide, and that means learn about them even though you don't care)

HOAs are too small to attract good people to run. (nations are too large and attract tyrants)

For ones serving municipalities or communities, sure. My electric company is a co-op, but it is also not a dedicated reseller as it generates most of its power and usually has surplus it sells to PG&E.

With an HOA, the very land your home is built on has this sort of lien via a “special property assessment” and you are subject to their policy or risk having your home taken in a 100% legal way. My electric company cannot do that to me.

Reduced load is reduced funding which leads to poor people dying in heat wave.

Part of the community guidelines that we aren’t allowed to discuss is censorship.

I get that we don’t want to spiral on discussing things, but can’t discuss them at all is draconian.

I’m perpetually surprised this otherwise mostly legit site is OK with us sharing links to pirated material.

I think it is time to reconsider these guidelines. I believe that this community should stand for freely accessible information on the Internet. As it is, we are being gamed: we are used to upvote and popularize content behind paywalls. The owners do not make it freely available, but still get the benefits of the community.

I have nothing against paywalls and paid content (in fact, I subscribe to news publications myself), but I believe they have no place on HN. Either it's on the Internet, or it isn't.

Then why not post the workaround in the first place I wonder.

Alternatively an ignorelist of domains would be nice.

If you know, can you share names/links? Thanks!

well, if nothing else, that thing looks futuristic as hell

would love to point out in my yard and say "oh, that? that's our mechanical energy storage device"

That looks very cool. Mechanical energy storage. Any idea what the return efficiency of such a device is? And guesses about its cost?

Cool! Thanks for the link.

A 10 kWh flywheel that can charge/discharge at 20 kW (lasts for 20~30 min at this power) costs ~11500 USD + installation and control system.

A Tesla Powerwall has 13.5 kWh capacity, delivers power at ~6 kW and costs ~11500 USD.

That doesn't seem a large difference to me.

A flywheel can provide frequency stabilisation, or it can provide energy storage, but it can't do both at the same time.

To provide frequency stabilisation is must be synchronised to the mains (eg run at a constant speed), while to provide storage it must be non-sychronised, eg slow down when loaded, and speed up when charging.

Of course you can use non-synchronous flywheels with synchronised inverters, but then you can do that with batteries, wind-generators, etc.

North Carolina in case anyone else is curious

>> Better Title: Microgrids Are Giving Power to Rich People

> but for many reading on this site, $300-400k is a reasonable home price

You're restating "rich people" as "Many reading on this site". Why not just say rich people?