I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

I went into engineer mode and while I acknowledged I didn’t have domain expertise, I asked questions and probed the whole situation. Very unsatisfactory, meandering answers.

This was a deeply distressing experience. For the first time ever I did the “call in a personal favour” thing and asked my dad to reach out a family friend, a former cosmetic dentist and former head of the province’s dental association for a second opinion.

He saw my son a few hours later and he was just livid about the diagnosis. That it was possible they’d have to come out but it’s impossible to know this for at least a few more weeks or more.

In a few months the teeth returned 100% to normal and firmed right up as the ligaments healed.

I’m not a conspiracy nut. I believe in listening to experts (but ultimately making an informed decision). I believe in modern medicine. But that experience shook me and forever changed my trust in the dental industry.

My feeling is that the nature of dentistry leaves a lot of room for subjectivity and COVID left a lot of dental chairs empty.

That was twenty-five years ago. Haven't been to a dentist since. My teeth are fine, and always have been.

Funny story about the 'no cavities' thing - when I was maybe 12 I went to a new dentist who found a cavity in a molar, drilled it out, and filled it with some sort of 'invisible' polymer filling and charged a whole bunch of money for it. Next dentist I went to, I mentioned the cavity and he said nobody had drilled on the tooth and there was no sign of a cavity or a filling of any type there.

Some years later, I was reading somewhere online and found out that the dentist who "filled" the "cavity" was a subscriber to a dental practice management program run by the Church of Scientology that, in part, taught that it was OK to rip off patients who weren't Scientologists. A few years after that, the dentist got arrested for molesting children and is probably still in prison.

Before I had an appointment with the new dentist, my wife had an appointment, and he told her she had gum disease with bone loss and needed a deep cleaning and to go on a "periodontal schedule" where she would have to come in every three months instead of six. (Note: My wife and I have different last names and separate insurance, so he wouldn't have known we're related.)

When I went in, the hygenist measured my pocket depths, and I noticed she seemed to be adding 1-3mm to what I remembered the measurements being every time I had that done in the past. The dentist then came in and gave me what sounded like a rehearsed speech concluding in the same diagnosis he had given my wife.

I told him I'd like to think about it and could he please send me the records they based this on. They proceeded to rush me out of the office, outright refusing to do the regular cleaning.

I went to another dentist and only told her I left my previous dentist because he gave me bad vibes. She started off with the pocket measurements which were magically back to normal! She said my teeth looked great. Then she asked about my previous dentist and I told her what happened. She said: "I suspected it was something like that."

So... yeah... what an industry...

ETA: Although now in my paranoia I wonder if the new dentist somehow knew the previous dentist's diagnosis and realized the way to keep me as a customer would be to tell me they were wrong. But they shouldn't be able to get my past records unless I authorize it, right?

Surely this should be noted in the HN title?

About 10 years into my career we had already been managing some very large hospital groups but ended up with a mangement contract for a diverse group health system that through accidents of history including some dental clinics. ~50 suites across several sites/brands. I had had some exposure to dental clinics and generally had not been impressed but not overly concerned either.

First meeting we had with the senior staff across the clinics set my hair on fire. It was one of the most callous, fraudulent and shocking things I had ever seen in my career. Dentistry does not have a notion or ethical obligation of "first do no harm...". The entire agenda of the strategy setting meeting was how to trick "patients" into unecessary procedures, generally defraud insurance companies (especially breaking things across many visits that could easily be done in one) and every other deceptive way to inflate profit at "patient" expense that could be conceived. There were quotas for procedures, something unimaginable and defacto illegal in a healthcare setting. Needless to say we divested the dental clinics as soon as possible. I came to find in later years that those modes of operation are more or less commonplace in the industry.

PS: I feel compelled to share her best advice re oral hygiene:

"You only need to floss the teeth you want to keep."

And if those prices were in 1997 dollars, I can’t imagine they’d be anything but much higher in 2022.

> Your dental work is lousy

This makes me fly away faster than anything else.

> Some of your crowns have jagged edges and need immediate attention. They will trap food and cause decay

I've also heard this one for the first time from a dentist that I thought I could trust. She initially said the previous work was nicely done, but one day, curiously while she started renovation work in her office, this became a problem that "she wasn't comfortable with anymore"

This is to the point that I switch dentists often and only get cleanings, reject everything they propose. Nothing they recommend ever align, and I'm quite open to them about that, and they still go ahead and affirm that the previous one was wrong and they know their shit.

> what I really ought to do, he said, would be to crown all 28 teeth

How can you reasonably be comfortable proposing that to someone? I can't begin to imagine all the problems you're gonna create for your customer at this stage.

Incentives for dentists are built in a way that only a very strong ethical sense will make them do the right thing. And since the standard is so low, of course things are going this way.

Unless ethical boards are made to be more independent and get much stronger on this kind of malpractice, or you reform training so that dentists don't start with huge student debt, there's no good way out.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/05/the-tro...

I notice though that neither my hygenist's or my dentist's office has been handing out information about this approach. Not good for business perhaps. I believe this technique works via abrasion so toothpaste is a must. I use a Braun 4000 but any sturdy electric toothbrush should work.

[1]https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220718-the-best-way-to-....

If dentists want to start drilling, capping, or pulling. Go get a second opinion.

I was referred to the Otho within my dentists office to look at my wisdom teeth. I was not in pain, they weren’t impacted, instead I was told “It’s a standard practice just to check.” It was supposed to be a consultation, but the ortho wanted to rip them out right then and there. He was frustrated at my insistence that we understand the total cost after insurance. I was awake for the procedure, local anesthetic only.

My dentist at the next visit looked at my X-rays and asked why I got my wisdom teeth out. The ortho was no longer with them.

Good riddance

I'm convinced that regulators should take a look at (ortho)dentists in the US, it's one of the most scammy group of people.

Also, I'm so happy that invisalign is being disrupted by all these online companies like SmileDirectClub/Byte/NewSmile/Candid/etc. It's literally the exact same service but you'll find plenty of FUD online about it. Can't wait for invisalign to die.

I'm 60 years old. Up until about 25 I just listened to dentists. They drill-and-fill and I went along. No longer. In 35 years I've had one problem. I broke a tooth biting on a hard seed in some Indian food. I got a crown for that. A few years later the crown came off. I haven't bothered getting it replaced.

I don't have tooth pain. My teeth have not shifted. I still eat what I want. I'm careful with Indian food. :)

My takeaway? I'm not seeing the dentist until I'm in pain or something breaks. No one is drilling on X-ray shadows again.

What ended up happening was that both returns were so dramatically different, along many different dimensions. It took me nearly 40 hours to catalog all the different decisions made by each preparer, and which of the two decisions is the better one. Through this exercise, I realized that both preparers had made some major errors - and by reconciling them, I ended up saving more than $10,000, while also making my tax returns more resilient if audited.

I'm convinced that for any non-trivial decision in any field, the best way to make them is to hire multiple independent professionals, and cross-check their independent recommendations. And yes, this applies to software engineers as well.

I decided to trust my instincts (weird pushy vibe from the dentist) and wait. Eight months later, I started seeing a new dentist who performed a full set of X-rays and new patient scans. They found that my teeth were in good shape and made no mention of needing a root canal. The sensitivity I had initially experienced had also completely vanished.

The entire ordeal led me to view dentistry in a new light. It reminded me that in many specialized trades, you're often at the mercy of the professionals in that field. Whether it's a dentist or any other specialist, there's always the risk that their profit motive might influence their advice or actions. Finding trustworthy specialists of any kind is tricky; more so when the economy is faltering.

I'm convinced dentistry is a total scam. I'm the only person in my friends group that has never had a cavity or dental work, and I strongly suspect it's not because there's anything special about me, except that I don't go to dentists as often as most people do.

I had stellar dentists up until I moved to a new city and had my first experience with a bad dentist. Never again.

Now I'm old enough to know better and here's my advice: brush and floss once a day before bed. Don't eat anything after you do so. If you want to get rid of "morning mouth", rinse your mouth using diluted hydrogen peroxide. Put a very gentle amount of pressure on the teeth using the brush. You don't need to scrub them.

If you can get a descaling from a dentist, take advantage of it. Ask the hygienist to use a local numbing agent on your teeth before cleaning (the gel not the injection). They'll know what this is. It makes the descaling far less painful and sort of pleasant.

When it comes to procedures like crowns or wisdom teeth, only deal with it if there is pain. I had my wisdom teeth removed and I disagree that it was medically necessary. They would have come in normally.

And if you know a medical professional, ask them who their doctor is and then ask that doctor who their dentist/doctor/eye doctor/etc is. Go to the medical professional other medical professionals go to if your insurance allows for it.

Good luck fellow HN friends.

Side Story: in my home country, Argentina, you can get national or imported screws/implants. The difference for doing one over the other is like 3 times. So let's say 500 dollars vs 1500 dollars (those are not the actual number), but I am friendish with a dentist, and he told me that the actual difference between a national vs imported screen is no more than 50 dollars.

My insurance sucks but at least it’s useful that insurance considers optional what my dentist says is essential. For example, my dentist only does tooth colored fillings and my insurance doesn’t cover them. My dentist says the covered ones are unsafe.

It’s a weird situation. My last dentist said I needed an “emergency crown” because my tooth would shatter at any moment. It was $3000. My insurance covered $600. The dentist said it was because my insurance was terrible.

Another dentist said the crown was optional and would cost $1800. That’s almost a 100% price difference.

And my most recent dentist says I don’t need a crown at all and it’s been two years since the “emergency.”

I’m not sure what’s going on, but of course it’s impossible to compare prices when choosing dentists and I don’t trust new dentists at all.

The problem is that if dentis technicians speak up against a dentist, it usually means they lose a customer. Dentists will find someone else to fill their order. It's basically a mafia.

This happens in other fields as well, such as: shoving expensive pills down depressed teens throats to milk insurance money, then gain power of attorney over said kid to feed him 16 pills instead of one (true story, friend's son, named Bobby, would have otherwise recovered naturally, but is simply not himself anymore).

Here are a few problems:

* Money inventivizes immortal practices. Bigger (albeit unnecessary) procedure with lifetime consequences, but more insurance money. Or just money if you don't have insurance.

* The craft is polluted by bad role models. Normalizing said practices, effectively absolving young professionals from accountability.

* Flawed definition of good mentorship. Young Professionals need mentors that are a figurative handrail to honesty, and acceptance of feedback from peers. i.e. when dentists get remarks from dentist technicians that said procedure is unnecessary.

I started having incredible tooth ache, so I found dentist clinic and went there. I had no insurance or anything.

After being quite impressed with the facility, the dentist came and started testing my teeth at the back. He was putting small swab with cold water, but he didn't find it. He told me that there should be root canal, and that I should look for a good dentist to do it for me. I was going to New York on my way back to Poland, and he mentioned that New York have best dentists and that root canal can cost around $2000 there.

It would be cheaper for me to fly back Poland, have a root canal done there and back btw.

Eventually he prescribed me antybiotic which helped. I payed $150 for the visit (down from $250 because I was foreigner I guess?).

Long story short after 2 weeks I went to the dentist in Poland. He did the same thing with cold swab, but this time he touched on the side which I immediately noticed. Dentist in the US touched only from the top, he didn't even bother to touch on the side.

It was root canal indeed and was fixed in 1 visit for $200.

Whilst extracting my last wisdom tooth (in the US) the dentist must have made a bad mistake, because right after the procedure I couldn't bite down properly on the affected side on my mouth.

I went for years with this situation, and started experiencing occasional pain on that side. Whilst a teaching assistant the the University of Washington (UW), I used to visit UW Medicine for faculty, telling the dentists that I suspected a fracture (based on my research). However they would invariably just throw me off, claiming it was very hard to identify such cracks, it might not actually be a crack, etc.

Eventually I lost that tooth, almost certainly due to the widening crack, as I suspected.

Now back home in Ghana, another tooth seems weak when eating certain very hard foods, and again I suspect a crack. Again, dentists in general seem unwilling to really address it, halfheartedly trying various diagnostic procedures that do not actually uncover the problem.

One was quick to propose a root canal, which seemed weird to me as the first line option to address something like that. This dentist describes himself as a root-canal specialist, and it's not a stretch to assume that he sees every dental problem in terms of root canals. Another dentist suggested it was a small cavity, and did her drill and fill routine, which has done nothing at all to alleviate the problem. Yest another dentist claims I need some tooth tissue filed away to correct the problem.

So now I'm not sure what to do. It seems cracks are hard to identify; I'm not sure why dental imaging cannot help much here. I'd like to know if there are better options than dealing with lazy dentists who just want your money.

I had a tooth pulled. Could have been a root canal, but whatever. (Insert sob story)

The real problem was that this dentistry was quietly affiliated to the local university's dental school. Many of the students end up here. The problem, is that the dentistry IS NOT UPFRONT this is a teaching business, and not actual professionals.

I found it out when I was digging through unrelated records in GIS, and found they were legally registered as a school. Dug deeper, and they're basically misrepresenting and lying to the public.

So yeah, keep this scam in mind as well. (I call it a scam cause I wasn't getting student rates, and they did their damndest to hide that.)

Many dentists are criminals willing to drill holes in children's teeth in order fraudulently take your money.

She's now 15. Never had a cavity ever.

There may be stereotypes about the British having bad teeth, but I've never had a dentist try to milk my wallet like that despite a poor diet having done a fair bit of damage over the years.

Dentistry here seems much more about doing the minimum necessary work to save teeth and relieve pain. The thought of getting crowns done en-masse is terrifying, I've only had one done, and it wasn't a fun experience - it's something I see as a last resort to save a tooth, certainly not something I'd want to go through for cosmetic improvements.

Unfortunately I had a ligament tear in my knee and after 4 surgeries I developed some pretty bad pains.

I took a vacation and scheduled visits to 10 orthopedic surgeons who had some of the highest medical credentials in the country.

Everyone told me that pain was caused by a different thing and dismissed ideas of other doctors.

The confidence with which they told me the reason would have convinced me have I not visited other doctors.

Later I had similar experience with doctors from other health areas.

Essentially, in medicine they can only diagnose the most typical stuff, for anything else it's just a bunch of wild guesses.

I've had similar experiences that make me never want to go to a dentist again because these new practices are so detached from reality. They only care about what is covered by your insurance and will deceive you with non-answers to maximize it.

I've also had experiences where one dentist will tell me I have a cavity and I'll get it checked out by another dentist who cannot confirm. These types of things need some type of tally from the public so others don't let these money-grabbers get off scot free.

This article is right on the money.

The first one to recommend this was 35 years ago.

I still have them, and the last dentist I saw says they are in good shape. The first one ever to tell me this. I've never had an issue with them.

Go figure.

I've internalised that little experiment as my "acid test of scientific maturity".

A random example that passes with flying colours is Chemistry: the exact same periodic table is taught in every school in every country. Nobody debates the existence of benzene, or the ability of acids to dissolve metals. There is no "eastern school" competing with the "orthodoxy of the south" or whatever. There is only one chemistry, globally.

A lot of other supposedly "highly scientific" fields fail this test. For example, there was a survey of practising theoretical physicists about the foundations of quantum mechanics, and it turned out that they disagreed on everything. Meanwhile they were all individually convinced that there is consensus, and that they're in agreement with it.

- shower curtains instead of glass doors: subpar airbnb

- Kikkoman soy sauce: probably not the best sushi

- teeth whitening services: dentist not optimizing for dental health

The problem is that they all push teeth whitening ... but it's a strong signal if you find one that doesn't.

The inept guy generates business by doing such a poor job with fillings that crowns and root canals are always eventually needed. And he does such a poor job with those that bridges and implants are then needed. He's a master bullshitter and most patients trust him (a few catch on, and a few have sued). My friend keeps records for the lawsuits, covers her own butt, and discreetly encourages some patients to go elsewhere.

The fraudster puts everyone on "perio" schedules (cleanings every 3 months instead of 6) whether they need it or not. And also bills insurance for treatment he didn't do. His actual dental skills are decent, however.

We laypeople assume we can trust these "experts" with degrees and white coats when we really have no clue if what they're doing is legit.

Next time you get your teeth cleaned, ask the hygienist if they themselves (or their family -- kids, parents) use the dentist you're about to see. My friends says that this is the question with the most valuable answer. She wouldn't let either guy within 100 miles of her teeth or her kids' and will happily tell people where she goes if they ask.

This is assuming the hygienist isn't crooked too. In the US, hygienists are typically paid hourly but with "production" bonuses, meaning they get a cut of the dentists fees for treatment beyond cleaning. So beware that they're incentivized to do more treatment than necessary too. In my friend's case, the bonuses are a small %, so it's not a huge incentive.

She stays because they pay well, give her the hours she needs as a single mom, and likes her co-workers. But the patient care and outcomes do take moral toll on her.

In my experience, and in my own opinion, the industry of dentistry would be nowhere near as necessary as it currently is if people largely gave up consuming too much carbohydrates and sugar, which feed the bacteria that are ultimately the root cause of tooth decay. Acidification of saliva is of course an issue as well, but I think the whole "drinking cola will rot your teeth" thing is an exaggeration and a sort of red herring. It's not the soda per se, or so much the acidity of carbonated water, but the fact that you're feeding bacteria which colonize in the crevices and pores of your teeth, forming biofilm, creating isolated pockets of acid that wear holes in teeth. If it was all about exogenous acid, then the entire tooth would be rotting evenly, but that's usually not what you see.

My teeth aren't perfect. In fact, there's some decay that I've let sit there for nearly two decades now. Ever since I cut sugar from my regular diet, any caries I had either reversed (when extremely early) or stopped progressing. I do plan on seeing a dentist soon to actually address the decay, because it's silly to leave it there, but I'm confident that I otherwise stopped it in its tracks. My gums don't bleed, and I've seen no meaningful changes to my teeth in all that time. If my hypothesis is correct, then there's a real conundrum because the most affordable food available to people also tends to promote more tooth decay; dentistry largely exists to compensate for the fact that the cheapest available energy for humans comes with negative side effects.

I'm sure any profession that it takes years of training to practice probably comes with enough complexity that broad consensus becomes generally unachievable.

Moved to the US in the early 90s, the dental practice in the US, holy moly! TVs with cartoons mounted to the ceiling, a bunch of staff from office workers dealing with insurance and scheduling to dental assistants. Then 1 or 2 dentist moving from patient to patient sequentially. It was a business first.

I don't know what it's like in France now, this was in the north, in a traditionally not affluent area (though my family was by all standards affluent). Has it become more like the US now? I don't which one is best, I do know all my grandparents (who were not affluent) had full dentures by the time they were 60.

I found a new dentist for my next cleaning 6 months later and got my usual teeth look great, no problems, see you in six months. That whole experience does not foster feelings of trust toward the profession, to say the least.

Also, Can anyone tell why don't more people fly to other countries for these procedures? Paying something like 6k$ for a crown is pure extortion. In India, a decent one (with quality equivalent to US) costs around 60$. That a difference of 100x.

Asking friends for recommendations is the best approach I've found - are there others?

I am excited to see an article using AP style. Maybe it's because it's from 1997, back when there were copy editors.

I had another one tell me I had a 'dead' tooth and it needed extraction as it would rot my mouth. I saw a different dentist and I asked about my 'dead' tooth. They responded I had no dead teeth and weren't sure what I was referring to.

Another anecdote: My child's teeth were coming in crooked, and had some late adult teeth. The first orthodontist suggested a spreader (a common procedure where your palate is split and made wider), followed by braces. The second said that they could also suggest an alternative, with only braces.

End result-- the dentists that give options are the better ones (IMO). If they give only one option, I am cautious. In general, get a second opinion.

Maybe the legal system that makes journalists afraid to name and shame clearly dangerous dentists is part of the problem?

Not exactly: my premiums go up and care goes down because of the insane gouging.

Then I tell them I'll just buy a few $50 pair on Zenni and they get wildly aggressive. Sorry, been wearing Zenni for a long time, they're excellent.

Anyone have links to good studies (or even RCTs) about flossing, different kinds of toothpaste, etc.?

I don't wanna open up the whole fluoride debate, but it seems _stannous_ fluoride is more effective than _sodium_ fluoride. The mouthwash I bought stained my teeth (can't find the link, but you had to dilute it with water. Something like [0]).

I remember reading a study that pulling wisdom teeth was unnecessarily common. I can attest that, as the best dentist actually compared two X-rays six months apart to see whether they moved.

P.S. Castle Dental is the worst. They quoted me for almost $3k worth of work! A second opinion told me I just needed a cleaning and maybe a filling.

[0]: https://www.amazon.com/3M-ESPE-PerioMed-Stannous-Concentrate...

I hear though that a lot of dentists get into scams like Amway and Scientology.

As an interesting extra they dressed him up in high and low socioeconomic status clothes (jeans, t-shirt and backpack vs. suit with Rolex and car keys) and found the "student" was 'overtreated' more than the business man. The assumption was that richer patients are more likely to get a second opinion, and thus the dentists didn't make up problems.

[1] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3036573

Guess what, the tooth healed up and stopped hurting and stopped wiggling in there. that was about 10 years ago, and it's been fine ever since. Now, I use the water pick 3 times a day and brush at least the same number of times or more. And I have not been back to the dentist since. I just keep everything nice and clean in there. I am not a doctor and blah blah warning. Just my personal experience.

Chiropractor == Dentist (IMHO)

My own opinion: their arrogance is the most offensive part of the situation. There are plenty of great doctors and surgeons out there, don’t get me wrong. But the majority seem to think they are a superior species.

My story: I brush and floss every single day. At my regular checkup, the dentist measured 2-5mm gum depths, and insisted on doing a deep cleaning, which involves anesthesia and multiple visits. I argued that the 5mm depths were borderline, and could very well be 4mm with measurement error. (They did seem to be pushing rather hard.) They also pointed out some tiny supposed "pockets" on the X-ray that looked like just imaging blur or something. Feeling very suspicious, I left, and found another dentist with, surprisingly, zero bad reviews on Yelp. They measured 2-4mm gum depths, and did a much less aggressive cleaning.

The sooner they’re replaced by automation that’s far superior in terms of accuracy and diagnosis, the better.

Just a hundred years ago doctors were doing wack shit like chopping off limbs and giving people toxins or cocaine. Maybe the cocaine isn’t so bad.

Today they give us SSRIs and opioids.

They are given far too much credit imo when they’re just mechanics. Just like you can get into an accident because brakes failed or something and you’re left with pain and suffering or you die.

I’ve had a misdiagnosis before. It has left me with continued pain and I do thank the second doctor who realized the former doctors mistake and did his best to make me as whole as possible.

I don’t trust doctors. And I don’t think that highly of them either.

During each monthly visit, the dentist evaluates my progress by conducting scans (done by the intern) and occasionally cleaning my teeth. The process was quite straightforward, and appears to be much simpler compared to making adjustments for traditional braces.

I'm interested in finding real cost for Invisalign trays and what share get the dentist

But the first dentist I talked to wanted to do some kind of ceramic, and didn't even suggest gold. The second one, I said I wanted gold, and he seemed relieved, saying that was the far better choice, but that he basically never brings it up any more because it has gone out of style.

...it really bothers me that neither of them would have mentioned the safer, superior, more durable option even as just that, an option. :-X

I wonder if this might be an interesting litmus test.

"By the end, the dentists had recommended treatments covering 19 different teeth, ranging from nighttime mouth guards to veneers promising a "complete smile makeover," with cost estimates ranging from $144 to $11,931."

When they asked for answers they were told "Dentistry is more of an art than a science". I damn near fell out of my chair when I heard that.

[1]https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/dentists-vary-widely-on-diagn...

Top of my crown cracked and I went to a new dentist(because we recently moved) to check it out. They told me that I need to get an implant and that implants are much better than real teeth anyway and it would only cost me $6k. The crazy part is they also had a foot massage place inside the office that was free after your procedure and you also get a free fresh cut rose when you come in...weird.

Anyway, so I went to a different place for a second opinion and they told me the crack is superficial and unless I'm concerned with the way it looks I can just ignore it. Which I did. This was about 3 years ago and I've been going to the second dentist ever since.

A very generous interpretation of the results here are that none of these dentists have a good context for the reporter’s overall dental health, hence such variation, but I suspect it is the far more banal profiteering that is driving the differences.

My own experiences mirror this when I go to a dentist. A gleaming office with several very expensive cars parked out front makes me immediately suspicious.

This industry had better tighten up or it’s going to have real problems with trust.

Actually, the article already identified the prime protection mechanism -- insurance. The data in the article is nearly meaningless, because in each case it was presented as "I will get reimbursed for whatever you charge me".

Having said that, you also need to get quality insurance, not the kind that limits you to the local "Smiles" dental franchise office.

After he retired the new dentist who bought the practice had no end of things she wanted to do. I have a new crown or two and new fillings. What really got to me is that she kept wanting to put me in braces. I'm 67. I said no once, twice, thrice.

After that I found a new dentist who was a colleague of my old dentist. No unnecessary work!! I'm glad I left that practice.

Visited several dentists recently, all gave me different diagnosis and recommendations. My mother also visited four dentists recently, all gave her different recommendations.

When I say different, there is overlap between them. But also a significant difference.

That's not only dentists. I have several examples in my family when non-dentist doctors give directly opposite opinions.

Also a well known fact: surgeons always recommend to cut.

Yes, doctors are just technicians trying to fix your body. In your It career how many lousy technicians have you met? This is exactly the same, but it's your life, or the quality of it on the line. Remember it next time you get "a diagnosis" and you have this little voice of doubt in your head "hmm, that seems weird".

Like someone else mentioned on here, I’m disinclined to believe in conspiracy theories, but I do believe there is a massive amount of incompetence and irreproducibility in the practice of medicine. It’s not rigorous science by any stretch.

I hadn't been to the dentist since covid. My gf convinced me to try her dentist -- I left with a $6000 proposal to fix all sorts of problems (including the one that sent me there -- a lost filling).

So I went back to my old dentist; she identified the missing filling and a couple of holes "worth keeping an eye on" with a total projected cost of... $300.

He said he was going to drill it out and fill it.

I told him I would schedule another appointment later to get this done….

Fast forward to three weeks ago I go to new dentist… I am 45 and have no cavities .. (never had one in my life am lucky :)

So dentist three years ago was prepared to drill a hole into my tooth and fill it with metal because it “looked like a cavity may be forming”

O

They should be consulting a formal decision tree based on latest research, but many doctors consider that to be insulting, much like they pushed back on check lists when they first became a thing.

Because it's not a science at all as far as going to these dental clinics goes. It's a business.

With him, I pay a 50% premium on the regular dentistry, well above what insurance will pay. Worth it, but makes sense.

I googled trying to find it and pulled up a bunch of other stories of dentists performing unnecessary procedures on children to defraud medicaid.

F'ing monsters.

WTH?

I'm done all kinds of exams you can think of and it was just me pushing my teeth all the time.

Also post Covid a new dentist said I had built up 6 cavities, so I went somewhere else and they said it was maybe 1 but that if I did fluoride rinse it might just heal over the next year.

That's quite beautiful

„This article originally ran in the February 1997 issue of Reader’s Digest.“

Healthcare in US is robbery in daylight. It’s kind of a joke they call it a capitalist country. Can’t compare prices, get 5 different bills over 6 months, in-network / out-network voodoo. A dentist/doctor could be in-network and yet insurance pays only $10 out of $500 bill and still charges $600/month premium.

The whole industry needs a big refactor.

This article originally ran in the February 1997 issue of Reader’s Digest.

I can only say, avoid dental chains at all costs and only go to trusted dentist owned clinics if possible.

I'm from EU and I got a yearly review + professional cleaning in a chain for my first job more than 15 years ago. The first time I used it they diagnosed me 4 or 5 caries that needed treatment, they said it was just a "beginning" but that it should be treated soon.

I ignored it and left it untreated for 1 year. My family never had problems with caries and before that time I was going to a public dentist who never identified any problem.

Next year I used the professional cleaning again but I went to a different clinic. They identified again 4 caries but in completely different teeth! Since that day I don-t trust any dentist that need an insurance to get patients or is managed by a profit-oriented chain. Note that in my country a lot of dentists don't work with insurance but that might not be the case in other places.

It's not like the dentists shouldn't earn good money, but they the ones that have their own clinic earn more than enough to not have to scam their patients. And even these can be greedy, but at least they are not pushed by a manager with monthly goals, so the chances are lower.

Fast-forward I met my now wife who is actually a dentist. 10 years later after my fake 5 caries she didn't find any.

When she finished her studies, she had to work for a few chains as well. What she saw there is terrifying.

The 1st job she was fired after 4 days because she was asking for autoclave sterilized material for every patient. First they tried to push back saying that ultrasound and chemical was enough, but she was having any of it.

Later the same week, she had a family with 3 kids, and she also requested sterilized tools for each of the 5 patients. They were telling her that sharing tools with the same family is totally fine. She was ready to leave the job the next day but they were faster and fired her. I guess she was starting to raise ideas to the young assistants.

After that she still worked in a few more places before she could find the right family owned clinic first and later start her own clinic.

During this period, she saw multiple malpractices and the authorities are not checking anything until somebody is badly hurt: Non-graduated dentists doing full-licensed dentist procedures, low quality materials and tools from Aliexpress that shouldn't be used for any medical procedure, patients coming from other clinics where after checking the history of x-rays she could see the dentist "planted" the root canal treatment (difficult to 100% proof of course), dentists invoicing for things that they didn't really do, and the list goes on...

Just please, be very careful when choosing your dentist. Some people can save tons of money and a lot of teeth if they have a knowledgeable and honest dentist.

Anyway read my profile and get in touch with me.

He then told me I need to extract a wisdom tooth that never came out. I saw the X-rays and it is not touching/hitting other molar like some of the nightmare wisdom scenarios that I've seen on the internet. It just didn't come out of the gum and it wasn't hurting me for the last 20 years of my life. So I refused saying because it never give me a problem, I'll leave it at that. My worry was that once it's taken out, it would give more space for the molar and other teeth nearby to start shifting, and my teeth spacing will become sparse (thereby, needing Invasilign for real). Then he started talking to me impatiently.

Finally, he suggested I redo the fillings, 4 of them total, that I had done ~10 years ago in SF. I never had any discomfort and there is no stain or sign of old-age in these fillings. The dentist didn't show me any picture of these fillings and why they need to refilled. But given that I have read about fillings needing to be redone every decade or so before, I said alright. Then he did it in 20 mins. Now one of the molars that he refilled has been giving me some uncomfortable sensations occasionally when I chew something with it.

This is not to mention that because I mentioned that the last time I went to a dentist was 1 year ago (I was busy from moving to FL), they suggested me to a deep cleaning. Turns out, that deep cleaning was quoted to be $2592 on paper and cost me $237.80 out of pocket (plus $569.20 paid out by my dental plan). The fillings cost $384 on paper and $36 out of pocket (plus $225 paid out by my dental plan). The worst was that the "deep cleaning" they gave me was EXACTLY the same that I got every six months from my NY dentist, who I had been seeing for 4-5 years.

Basically, my conclusion is that the dentist and hygienists decided to extract (pun intended) as much money out of me as possible because it was my first visit and my teeth are in good condition, so they realize if they couldn't scare me with mis-aligned teeth, closeted wisdom teeth, etc. then they might as well make up some excuses to charge me as much money as possible for "deep cleaning" and refillings. The clinic still made $237.80+$569.20+$36+$225=$1068 for a total of maybe 20 mins with the dentist and 25-30 mins with the hygienist.

Needless to say that I refused to schedule bi-annual (every 6 months) visit with them this July. The point I'm trying to make is that in this day and age of profit-oriented healthcare, we, as patients, cannot trust doctors and dentists without questioning (yet, some doctors and dentists don't like us questioning their judgment/recommendations because they are the ultimate authorities).