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Comment by the_af | Hacker News Reader

I'm sorry, I didn't ask you for a poem-like text generator.

Your claim was:

> LLMs Can produce output that is equal in intelligence and creativity to humans. It can even produce output that is objectively better than humans.

I don't see this poem about half-dragon / half-hippos as particularly creative, but I'll preempt the "my opinion vs your opinion" with this: it definitely does NOT surpass what humans can come up with. Human poems are unarguably better.

And this word salad of a poem definitely fed from human creations and is derivative of them.

I didn't ask whether LLM could create poem-like texts.

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You asked for examples where it could do better than you and you stated it couldn't be creative. I gave you an example both in text form and in picture form where it is creative and it does better than you.

First this proves it can do better than you. The word salad is likely better than anything you can come up with. Again feel free to prove me wrong here by doing better. Draw me a better illustration and write me a better poem. These are your initial points. Stick to the point and prove me wrong. Do not deviate.

Second there is no denying this is creative. Both the picture and the text are the definition of creative. Whether it's a poem or not is besides the point. Whether it's "particularly creative" or not is also besides the point. The picture and the text prove your initial points wrong. I will be sticking to this point until you prove otherwise. Until then I request you do not deviate the conversation to alternative points.

> You asked for examples where it could do better than you

No. I suggest you read again. Or is that "you" a collective for "humankind"?

> First this proves it can do better than you.

No. You are misusing the word "proof" in a dishonest way.

> The word salad is likely better than anything you can come up with.

Feeling combative, are we? You know nothing about me. I don't feel compelled to write anything for your amusement; I suppose that makes me different from a LLM-powered chatbot.

> The picture and the text prove your initial points wrong. I will be sticking to this point until you prove otherwise. Until then I request you do not deviate the conversation to alternative points.

I feel no obligation to follow your whims, unlike a chatbot. The text and picture prove nothing of the sort. Besides, I didn't claim I was a particularly good writer, let alone a good poem writer (I didn't claim the contrary; I made no claims at all).

I didn't claim there is no creativity with LLMs. I claimed it's barely equal to and certainly doesn't surpass human creativity.

PS: I am very skilled at drawing (in a different style than the example) and I can easily surpass it in my preferred style. I don't find the illustration you showed very good, either.

Not being combative. You are mistaken. I am simply trying to keep the conversation on point and prevent deviation. You made initial points I want those points to be determined to be definitively wrong or right before moving on and branching off into deviations.

By "you" I mean the average human. The common human. It can surpass you as an average human and thus it can surpass the common human aka most humans. I don't know you but I made an assumption that you are average.

If you are good at drawing that doesn't mean you can do better. When I compare the art from LLMs to other artists it is in general equal. Then in this case it matches you in your preferred style. But likely beats you in photorealistic styles. I know artists often use simplistic styles to make things easier. Is this the case for you? I wouldn't know. But when looking at other artists I find it very likely it matches you in skill.

The claim made by me is that an LLM can surpass humans and match humans. I did not make the claim that it consistently does this. I believe the poem and the picture proves this as everyone on this thread is unlikely to provide any proof to the contrary.

Maybe you can do slightly better for the illustration. But slow speed prevents you from proving this.

"You" the average human, but then you challenge me to provide something better? Weird.

I wouldn't write something as bad as this poem, and I'm not even a poet!

No, my art style is not "simple", but it's not photorrealistic either (this style you showed isn't photorrealistic either, mind you).

Without taking away how the current AI image generators work, which is impressive, I find good human artists are better. And the AI is taking from them, anyway. It's one thing to say "draw like van Gogh", and another entirely to be van Gogh for the first time.

Comparing an algorithm to "average people" makes no sense. Some people are not creative at all, so maybe a clever chimp is more creative! A vector-graphics game from the 80s-90s is better than most people at drawing vector art, so what? This is not how meaningful creativity comparisons work.

Creativity is not measured in speed either. If this is the metric you're using, I can see the source of our disagreement.

Yeah why not challenge you? I assume your average. That's not wierd at all.

If you wouldn't write something as bad as the poem then write something better.

LLMs are taking away from artists simply because in the eyes of consumers they are roughly equivalent if not better. Who's to say your judgement is better then the judgement of consumers of art?

Why not compare algorithms to the average person? It's certainly better then comparing to some off the charts anomaly of a person. What you're not seeing is that an LLM beating average people is already proof it's creative. But then again LLM art surpasses even those that are above average.

Creativity is not measured in speed. This I agree. But that was not my point. My point was, speed is allowing LLMs to supply me with an endless array of proof and examples. Speed is preventing you from providing anything. It's your word against actual example outputs created by chatGPT or stable diffusion.

> Yeah why not challenge you? I assume your average. That's not wierd at all. If you wouldn't write something as bad as the poem then write something better.

Because, like I explained, I'm not at your beck and call. I'm not ChatGPT; you cannot order me to do things for your amusement.

> LLMs are taking away from artists simply because in the eyes of consumers they are roughly equivalent if not better.

You are making a wildly unsupported claim ("equivalent if not better"). Also, people who enjoy art are not "consumers" nor is art a "product". Your mindset is all wrong about this, which might explain why you're so easily satisfied with AI art.

> Why not compare algorithms to the average person?

Because a completely dumb algorithm that takes paragraphs from random texts in Project Guttenberg, without paying much attention to fine coherence, is already producing something "better" than the average person. Yet nobody, not even you, would call it a breakthrough in neither AI nor creativity.

This is not how meaningful discussion about creativity will happen.

By the way, the onus is on you. You made an extraordinary claim, it's on you to provide a convincing example. I don't have to "provide" anything (yet).

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