Is “do the needful” correct? | Hacker News Reader

Is “do the needful” correct?

grammarly.com

32 pointsadolph53 comments

That's a loaded title that the site doesn't really address at all! What does it mean for a dialect to be correct? It may sound weird and we've wrong to Americans and such but Indian English is as valid as any other English dialect, there are so many people speaking it for such a long time that it's evolved in a fascinating way, keeping some expressions that have falling out of use elsewhere and making up entirely new ones as well. I hoped for an analysis on that aspect of Language.

Yes what would be interesting is to compare the phrase in English to the same phrase in a few widely-spoken languages in India, to see if the English phrasing is mimicking, say, Hindi or Telegu or Tamil or… [long list of languages omitted for brevity.]

I have never heard it spoken in any language, even in English, only started seeing it in “formal” emails post 1996.

"Do the needful" is used in Nigeria as well. So i feel like it is almost certainly an extinct British phrase.

TFA agrees: Do the needful originated in India, is commonly used in African countries, and was once heard frequently in the United Kingdom as well. After the Victorian period, its usage in the West died out, but with the increase in outsourcing to and from India, it started catching the ear of English speakers in the West again.

You can definitely find it in 19th-century UK books on Google Books. Doesn't seem to be very common, but it is used in a pretty similar way to the way Indian English uses it today. From an 1833 English court opinion [1]:

> This letter was immediately given by the bankrupt to the defendant, with directions that as the voyage was altered, he, the defendant, would do the needful.

The opinion then spends several additional pages trying to determine what precisely was legally "needful" in this situation.

[1] https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Law_Journal_Reports...

> I hoped for an analysis on that aspect of Language.

Likewise. I have AdBlock turned up to 11 but all I saw on that page was a couple of lines of trivialities between Grammarly ads and filler.

Regrettably it does not appear in "World Wide Words" which did look into global English phrases during its run. https://www.worldwidewords.org/genindex.htm

I think correct in this context just means standard in at least one dialect of English, which "do the needful" definitely is.

As descriptivist as linguistics is, there is a real distinction between standard and non-standard language.

I've noticed that expression rubs people the wrong way in corporate environments. It gets seen as a cop out from having to put any effort towards a task or issue, and throws responsibility over the fence abruptly and in an unhelpful way.

Many native English speakers I've worked with consider it rude and/or condescending, to the point that on a couple of occasions I've let Indian English speakers know this. My thinking is that if I spoke another language and was using an English phrase that translated poorly, I'd want to know.

As a native English speaker I've let my native English speaking management know about all sorts of rude, condescending, infantilizing corporate doublespeak and yet it gets worse every year. "Do the needful" pales in comparison to the codswallop in the layoff notices that get posted here regularly.

Yeah, to me it's basically just a vernacular peculiar to Indians that would be almost exactly equivalent to "take care of that".

The one that blew me away in my first corporate job was referring to people as "resources". And I don't mean as in the human resources department which I begrudgingly accept. I mean saying things, like "let me get a resource" to mean get a person. I get that we're viewed as replaceable cogs in the machine, but there's no need to rub our faces in that.

I actually did have some success in persuading people that it was dehumanizing.

See, this is the correct take. Using "resources" for people shook me the first time I heard it in a high-level planning meeting. I'm being serious here that it kept me up all night.

"Headcount" strikes me the same way.

“Resource” is an artifact of our services companies (outsourcing) and their project management training.

Extremely annoying and frustrating as they would yank people off projects and replace them with junior “resources,” and expect no impact on the project.

Oh, the company recognizes your outstanding effort and is offering you a 1% raise. Corporate speak is meant to gaslight people.

2% for me. I met expectations and was accordingly paid for my performance as one of the company's most valuable assets.

Are not many or most Indians also native English speakers?

No, they are not.

South Indians are a small minority in India.

And native English speakers in India also use the phrase.

I don't agree with your thinking fwiw but appreciate the intention. 1/4 of a billion people in India speak English, they are just as much "native English speakers" as English speakers in the western world. You could also equally inform western English speakers as to the intention behind the phrase.

I don't necessarily stake a position in your disagreement, but do think there is a difference between majority usage and origin.

Then again: "English do[es]n't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." - James D. Nicoll

I think this is dependent on context. If it's obvious to the recipient exactly what needs to be done and how, I can see "do the needful" being respectful and having the connotation of, "I'm not going to tell you how to do your job". Conversely, if you receive a vague or unactionable complaint followed by "do the needful", it has more of the connotation that you describe.

Yes, to my admittedly West Coast American ear, the phrase comes across as borderline offensive, especially in the version I've seen more often: "Please do the needful." Somehow the "please" makes it even worse.

Occasionally I hang out in the English Language Learners Stack Exchange. Some of the questions and answers there make me sad. They often revolve around "is this grammatically correct" rather than "is this a courteous and effective way to communicate?"

I hate the “Kindly do the needful” variant with a passion. Then again, “kind regards” and “thank you kindly” sound condescending to me.

I can’t believe no one recognised the source. It’s all from The Wren and Martin grammar book. The book was popular in colonial India and prescribed for civil servants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wren_&_Martin and https://surendranathcollege.ac.in/new/upload/JAHIRA_HOSSAIN2... for anyone, like me, who missed this bit of history.

I can't find any references of 'do the needful' or just 'needful' in that linked pdf

Anybody who has worked with Indians for any amount of time will immediately recognize this phrase. It is very common there.

South India, and I personally had never seen it before 1996. As e-mail became more prevalent after that it seems to have spread.

“Kindly do the needful and revert back please” was the most common and annoying form of ending most emails.

Between India and Pakistan, there are about as many English speakers as there are in the United States! I'd think that makes a common turn of phrase used there to be correct by consensus.

Good point, however communication is about what other people are liable to understand. To your final sentence I would append "within the context of that group of people". Usage of language is liable even in our interconnected world to diverge and this is perfectly acceptable. It is probably more meaningful yet to define whether a particular usage is useful than correct.

i remember when this phrase started confusing lots of westerners during the central asian global IT (and support) boom of the early aughts.

it was not uncommon to see these phrases appear in support tickets.

i wonder if western phrases like "i will take care of it" sound equally discordant to central asian ears...

> Do the needful originated in India

Really? I can't find a source on this, but my impression is that this phrase was part of Victorian English and introduced to India at that time. Like many dialectical differences between English-speaking countries however, this usage continued in India even after going extinct in Britain.

You may be right as "do the needful" is a Nigerian phrase as well.

Google Ngram Viewer seems to agree, putting peak usage of "do the needful" in the mid-1800s. A phrase I would tend to use instead, "do what is needed", appears to be much more recent.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=do+the+needful...

Indian students would often sign-off their emails with variations of "Please do the needful".

It came from the English themselves, so it's as 'correct' as anything in the English language could possibly be.

This phrase is used in a lot of British 19th and early 20th century books. Search site:gutenberg.org "do the needful"

I was always reminded of Captain Picard's "Make it so." from Star Trek.

"Git 'er done!" by Larry the Cable Guy.

It is incorrect American English, and correct Indian English.

If you want to sound good to Americans that you work with, don’t use that phrase. If you work with Americans who appreciate Indian English, don’t worry about it.

As often heard in India! That and many other weird and wonderful phrases...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_English#Vocabulary

I can see revert to be confusing in a tech environment

I was once late for a meeting because my coworker needed to prepone it and I just assumed I’d misheard.

"Prepone" is a brilliant word that the rest of us need to adopt.

This one I absolutely agree with. I love preponed meetings because I can easily skip it.

It reminds me a bit of The Assassin's Guild in Terry Pratchett's Discworld series. They didn't murder or assassinate anyone; they "inhumed" them - as in the opposite of exhume them.

Horn OK please!

(Note: considered outdated, but I still love the phrase)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_OK_Please

The origins of this phrase goes back to a middle signal light called the “OK light” on trucks.

When you wanted to overtake a truck, you were supposed to tap your horn, and the truck driver would flash this middle light to tell you it was safe to overtake. That signal light disappeared decades ago, but that phrase remains.

It was originally: “Horn Please” above, and “Ok” written under that signal light.

I swear I read this phrase a while ago in a funny HN thread.. can't seem to find it anymore

Sure, and color is spelled without a "u".

step 1: acquire girlfriend step 2: do the needful

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