Comment by TheAceOfHearts | Hacker News Reader

Comment by TheAceOfHearts | Hacker News Reader

These kinds of situations always seem like a collective trauma response to some aspect of society.

Looking at abortion statistics in the US it also gives collective trauma response vibes. For what it's worth, I'm still pro choice. But it's hard to look at the sheer magnitude of abortions and not think that maybe something is wrong with society.

Reading this article, the discussed solutions seem rather vague. I'd be interested in reading what concrete steps other HN readers think should be taken in Japan and more broadly. I'd probably recruit a bunch of reformed ex-recluses, get their feedback and suggestions and test them out in different regions, then continue iterating from there.

I don't think that the people responsible for creating existing power structures tend to have the proper context or perspective to fix the flaws, and often the ones who do have a better perspective are powerless to make changes.

As a thought excessive, I wonder how many people would end up living through a similar outcome if they were reborn in the recluse's shoes. How much autonomy do you think these people had before growing up and being psychologically crippled by societal structures and systems?

Hikikomori is a japanese expression of "acute social withdrawal", which is a global phenomenon. The US is encountering it, as well as europe. It is also a mostly male phenomenon, with young men finding their roles in society increasingly unnecessary. Without the motivation to provide for a family that they don't have, men become depressed and withdraw from society. There is a direct relationship between acute social withdrawal and falling birth rates in the developed world

But why aren't females withdrawing from society? What keeps them?

As far as I can tell they love empty corporate culture.

I don't know. Maybe women have stronger and more supportive social networks in general?

There's stereotypes within the US that women tend to be more likely to be supported while men are more likely to get abandoned. But that might just be a really low resolution model of reality which fails to capture the full nuances of the situation.

What do you think are some of the potential reasons for the sex disparity?

I think you are right, but I think it is not the complete picture. There are several reasons I could think of:

- Dating: Men are, generally speaking, expected to make the first move, which creates pressure to perform.

- Work: Men are expected to provide for a family, which creates pressure to perform.

- Social backup: Because of all that pressure to ge ahead social structures inside male dominated circles are more competitive (which reduces support and adds pressure). But I might be wrong about that.

- Genetics and hormones: Men are, AFAIK, seen as the sex of the extremes. There are more high performing and low performing men than women.

Reasons? Its pretty clear and obvious to me, but possibly not socially correct to say.

Biology. In evolutionary terms we're still the same creatures as our neolithic ancestors. The clear division of roles by sex, that you see in most other animal species, are also baked into our brains. To the degree we cannot fill the roles that our brains tell us we should be filling, we feel useless, unfulfilled, and unhappy.

Women feel unhappy as they live out their childbearing years without a male partner, children or without fulfilling the role of mother and nurturer.

Men feel unhappy as they live out the prime of their lives without children and a female partner and fulfilling the roles of protector and provider.

Obviously there are exceptions, and compensating mechanisms. But it's not that complicated.

Unpopular but true

>But that might just be a really low resolution model of reality which fails to capture the full nuances of the situation.

in general women have less stigmas against not working (even 50 years after women entered the work force en masse and the modern western workforce is basically 50/50) and perform better in school than men. So I imagine it's a mix of less women falling through the cracks to begin with and them more support options if they do.

Other factors on the male side include being more likely to abuse alcohol/drugs and less likely to get treated for mental health issues. it's part of why homeless population are overwhelmingly male (not to mention there are some female-exclusive shelters for homeless women).

Males may have higher career ceilings, but much lower floors as well, with not as many people trying to reach out.

They have their pick of the litter when it comes to dating. They’re much more likely to get a college degree. I think overall they’re less likely to be disgusted by the hollow and meaningless culture that has engulfed all. They aren’t archetypal matriarchs anymore, but perpetual teenagers jockeying for position via social media virtue signaling

Men define themselves by their capacity to support others. They need to be a provider or contribute in some way or they feel useless. These days, there does not seem to be many meaningful ways for men to be able to do that. Additionally, women are putting off having children (or choosing not to entirely) in lieu of a career. Without a wife and kids, men don't tend to see much point in living

I'm well aware of this. What concrete solutions do you think should be attempted to fix or improve the problem?

Are there any interventions across the world that have been successful at improving these situations?

The article doesn't go into the success rate for their discussed solutions.

It seems like the phenomenon requires enablement. Someone is supplying food, shelter, and electronics to these people which allows them to avoid leaving their comfort zones

So, parents? I don't know if kicking a kid out really solves the actual issues at hand.

yeah, basically parents.

I kind of think it would, provided other ultimatums such as getting a job or going to school have failed.

Assuming they aren't disabled, it forces them to decide if they would rather get a job or be homeless.

of course covering the fist months rent would be nice.

>it forces them to decide if they would rather get a job or be homeless.

With the current state of the world, these aren't mutually exclusive. That's the sad reality as of now. Even if they stay at home, having a minimum wage dead end job doesn't exactly inspire much confidence in becoming a productive citizen outside of satisfying some statistics.

I kind of thought you'd say that and I disagree. It's not that hard to live an independent life, at least in the US. Unskilled labor is in high demand and it is easy to be stuck in a pessimistic mindset as an excuse for not doing anything.

Of course you're not going to transition from living at home without a job to being a successful homeowner immediately. However, your chances are basically zero if you stay at home and do nothing.

Well I'm in the US and couldn't disagree more. But "in the US" has such radically different experiences by region and even demographic that we may as well be talking about different countries.

>Of course you're not going to transition from living at home without a job to being a successful homeowner immediately.

That's another sad reality. It was true some 60 years ago. And that's the mindset the lion's share of congress has. Make minimum wage a living wage again and maybe people won't see it as hopeless to get a job.

Off the top of my head:

* Start boys at school 1 year later than girls

* Universal maternity leave

There are more but I forget

I don't think it's mostly a male phenomenon. The original article says hikkikomori are about equally likely to be male as female. There are also more female NEETs worldwide, though female NEETs are more likely to be disabled and/or caretaking for dependents.

See https://cepr.net/report/are-young-men-falling-behind-young-w...

There's a difference between a NEET stay-at-home-mom and a NEET 24 year old male who lives with his parents

>I'd be interested in reading what concrete steps other HN readers think should be taken in Japan and more broadly.

Japan is its whole beast and I'm sure there's subtleties that will go over my head. But if I was to address the general aspects, it's a multi-facet issues:

- Short term solutions (< 1 year): US centric problem, but loan forgiveness would help with a lot of youth debt. It's years in the making and currently happening so I sort of count it in "short term". We could also use more supprort centers (be it homeless shelters or job placement centers), but advertising the existing ones can go a long way as well.

- Mid term (<5 years): Obvious financial ones, but raise minimum wage and and lower rent (while controlling how much renters can increase it every year). start making sure people can actually live off a job and some won't see it as hopeless. Also, make sure entry level jobs are actually "entry level": Nothing more discouraging than "all applicants welcome!" followed by "preferred: 3-5 years experience".

- Long term (10-20 years): Firstly, we could use more spaces for youth to meet without romantic context (e.g. bars). An under talked about aspect of society in the last 30 years includes the falling apart of community lounges, so it's no wonder people feel lonely. post college, you either find a party scene, find a mate, or suffer in silence. For jobs, we should bring back more of an apprenticeship culture. Not every job needs a degree, and some jobs use a degree more as a filter than an actual preparation for useful job skills. So why not put that training back into the companies?

You should read Thomas Sowell. You're not thinking about second and third order effects of policy . Loan forgiveness is like the government offering unlimited student loans. Can be argued in the short term but has the moral hazard of making college the only viable path to success. Raising minimum wages and lowering rent is trying to control outcomes at the final level but ignore that raising the minimum wage cuts out the bottom of the market and prices out these low skilled males in the first place. Also legislatively trying to limit the price of housing while having political policies that result in an ever increasing demand for housing and expanding of the city population, while simultaneously limiting the ability to build in a city which limits the ability to expand the supply. You're suggesting "Do something" without looking at the consequences of what those policies are on a second and third order of effect, and not realizing how those "good intentions" make things worse.

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