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Comment by tokai | Hacker News Reader

Seems like a lot of effort to keep asocial drivers on the road. Why not just take their drivers license? Then move on to prison time if they keep driving.

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Taking the driver’s license should happen already through the points system (3+ points upon conviction for red light or speeding; 11 points in 18 months to license suspension)[0], but perhaps it’s not enough?

I looked up the license plate of a car that hit me and saw 18 speeding violations, 4 school bus violations, 1 red light violations over the past six years. In the year before it hit me, there were 8 speeding violations. [1]

[0] https://dmv.ny.gov/tickets/about-nys-driver-point-system

[1] https://www.howsmydrivingny.nyc/

Because unfortunately in the US, the ability to drive is required to get to work. Transit options are non-existent in most of the rural areas.

I can accept that this is the state, not the city, but come on - this proposal is specifically for New York, home to one of the very few functional transit networks in America. Let's not pretend that New York (even the areas outside NYC) is on par with rural Wyoming.

Outside of NYC and the immediate metro area, public transport is either non-existent or poor at best.

Rural NY isn't significantly different than any other state. You're still isolated anywhere outside the metro areas.

> six speeding tickets and red-light camera violations, or four speed camera or red-light violations, in a year

That does sound like people who are completely oblivious to the law.

Maybe they have courtesy cards from the police.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7gxa4/pba-card-police-court...

Or 11 points, which is basically going 25 mph over twice in 18 months.

25mph over is bonkers. Doing that twice in a one and a half year should definitely have heavy consequences.

You're probably thinking 50 in a 25 zone, which is indeed crazy. But 80 on a 55 stretch in the middle of nowhere is not at all unusual in a lot of places.

>But 80 on a 55 stretch in the middle of nowhere is not at all unusual in a lot of places.

Or anywhere on the NY Thruway.

Yes and while you're at it why not make all prison sentences for life?! That would definitely keep even more asocial people off a lot of roads...

But seriously, what happened to that quaint old concept that "the punishment should fit the crime"? In a country where public transport sucks, losing your driver's license is a rather small step up from house arrest.

And 11 points in NY, which is how most people would run afoul of this wonderful new law, is not at all hard to get. Heck, I once got 6 points in upstate NY because the cop was waiting at the bottom of a steep hill in the middle of nowhere. Fortunately he didn't find anything improper about me using my phone for GPS, or I would have hit 11 points instantly.

Dangerous driving is a violent crime, with potentially deadly outcome. The punishment should be harsh for repeat offenders. Its not a crime your socioeconomic circumstances made you do, its very easy to just drive within the speed limit. Tough punishment for crimes usually done by the middle-class do often seem harsh for people, even though its not really harsh compared to many other actual victimless crimes.

>The punishment should be harsh for repeat offenders. Its not a crime your socioeconomic circumstances made you do, its very easy to just drive within the speed limit. Tough punishment for crimes usually done by the middle-class do often seem harsh for people, even though its not really harsh compared to many other actual victimless crimes.

I think it's a strange argument to say we'll make things fair to poor people in jail for drug offenses by sending less poor people to prison for speeding tickets.

Thats all you.

I agree, except for the prison time part: NYC’s prisons are more or less torture sites[1], and we really don’t need to send more people to be tortured.

Driving a car is a privilege that can and should be rescinded, especially in a city where so many alternatives exist.

[1]: https://apnews.com/article/rikers-island-new-york-city-006c6...

Then what do you do if they keep driving after you take the licence?

Impound their vehicle?

that's a start but you might need to impound their money too if they keep using it to buy replacements

Personally, I think that would be a reasonable response, but there might be problems in practice. The driver may well not be the owner, or will lose their job and that will put their family on welfare... One can reasonably say "you should have thought of that", but in practice, the courts seem reluctant to act in such cases.

Your modification of tokai's suggestion reverts it to what we have now, and that is not working very well.

Not really. Take away their license, impound their vehicle if they continue to drive it, and then sell it to pay their fines if they fail to do so.

Yes, really, with respect to your original post. You have just added vehicle impounding as an alternative measure to fix it.

This is a weirdly adversarial reading: “rescinded” doesn’t have to stop at their driver’s license.

It is a very straightforward reading... Incidentally, I have responded to the impounding option on an adjacent thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36970547

Sounds like a good argument for prison reforms, not making dangerous driving a consequence free crime.

Sure, but then why not first make sure that the prison reform happens before sending people to the torture place?

I think it’s a good argument for both. We’re not going to imprison people indefinitely for dangerous driving, and prisons are not driving schools.

If they can’t be trusted to drive safely, then they shouldn’t be allowed to drive. We have simpler (cheaper, more humane, etc.) ways to do that than putting them in a cage.

This is your daily reminder that the proposed law is a New York State law, not just an NYC law. It would apply much wider than just NYC.

Outside of major cities, driving really is a necessity. Revoking someone’s license is effectively revoking their right to work and all that comes with it (shelter, food, healthcare, etc). Of course, that should make people think twice about the crime, and it probably deters a fair few people from reckless driving, but for the remainder it just makes them unproductive citizens with little to lose.

We should probably either consider driving to be a bit more than a revocable privilege or improve alternative transport options (or consider right to food, shelter, and healthcare human rights).

  ...especially in a city where so many alternatives exist.

For what it's worth, this proposal affects the state, not the city. The state with regions where it's not abnormal to get 6+ feet of snow per year.

I don't disagree with the sentiment, just pointing out that it's a bit more complex than telling people to use alternate transportation.

Thanks for pointing that out. That does indeed make it harder to establish a policy of confiscation for repeated offenses.

I actually researched VTL penalties; speeding under 10 MPH over is a $45 minimum to $150 maximum fine (before the ~$85 surcharge) and/or up to 15 days imprisonment, anything 11+ can be up to 30 days.

It's gonna be unpopular, but maybe they need to see a couple days on a weekend behind bars as a sobering reminder.

>maybe they need to see a couple days on a weekend behind bars as a sobering reminder

Anything I say that resembles stats would be made up, but just from my own anecdotal experience (being arrested and fingerprinted for failing to appear in traffic court, and friends spending the night in the drunk tank), I'd say this is exactly the wake-up call that most offenders would need to stop it.

The remainder are likely serious addicts or psychopaths who need medical intervention.

b/c that's exactly what happens: they keep on driving and going to prison. Drunks are stubborn.

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