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Comment by gerbilly | Hacker News Reader

Geez, this was just basic street smarts when I was growing up. Ask some questions upfront.

Have cash on hand when dealing with taxis. Don't assume card terminals will work, or even that they won't skim your card.

You may say, 'That's why I hate taxis cos they scam you,' yet this thread has contains many examples of Uber(Eats)* scamming people too.

Why is that better? Cos it's accessed via smartphone for some reason?

Conjecture/Rant: There is a growing cohort of people who want everything to become 'frictionless'. They are even afraid to just talk to people, talk to girls, everything has to be through text or through an app. If they get their way humans will start to interact with each other more like machines than like people, hey, maybe even through APIs! Meanwhile, what makes life interesting 'is' friction between people and cultures.

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Yea - And those darn kids play music too loud too!

I grew up in the suburb where there were no taxis. I live in SF, and we can’t call a taxi without an app. I visit NYC once a year. Plenty of people (esp immigrants from other cultures) don’t have “street smarts” that match what some urbanite 30 years ago would have. I tried taking a taxi from JFK last time I was in NYC. The driver claimed he didn’t know where my hotel was, or even the neighborhood (“Chelsea”). They stopped in the left side of the highway to spit out the door. They pretended not to take cards, they added on fees not in the original agreement, etc. If I’m gunna be scammed either way, at least let me use google maps to put in an exact address and pay by card.

Wanting frictionless commerce is not a character flaw geez. An app is way more convenient. I can talk to people “IRL” but some things are easier with an app. Getting a taxi to pick me up is easier with an app that knows my current location - that’s a good product development not an indictment on the next generation.

> Yea - And those darn kids play music too loud too!

I sure hope so.

> I visit NYC once a year. Plenty of people (esp immigrants from other cultures) don’t have “street smarts” that match what some urbanite 30 years ago would have.

Ironically, the immigrants probably have more street smarts.

> The driver claimed he didn’t know where my hotel was, or even the neighborhood (“Chelsea”).

And you rode with him anyway? Why would you do that?

Reliance on Apps to intermediate everything is bullshit in my opinion. Plus I personally specifically don't want to share my location with some app written by people I've never met who are 100% likely to either misuse it themselves or to sell it to someone who will.

When they want to take your freedom away, they won't come jackbooting in with rifles, they will do it by offering you convenience.

> Reliance on Apps to intermediate everything is bullshit in my opinion. Plus I personally specifically don't want to share my location with some app written by people I've never met who are 100% likely to either misuse it themselves or to sell it to someone who will.

Have you tried taking a taxi in a country where you didn’t know the language?

> Have you tried taking a taxi in a country where you didn’t know the language?

Yes, lots of times.

It helps to know the rudiments of the language, but mostly we communicated in a kind of pidgin.

Travel books used to have lists of phrases at the very back for this kind of thing. People figured it out.

How many different countries and phrase books only takes you so far. I know barely enough Spanish to almost get by. But I wouldn’t have wanted to depend on it when I was in Los Cabos for three weeks staying in a hotel and I definitely wouldn’t have been as comfortable going around Mexico hailing a cab and giving directions as I was with Uber - and also needing cash.

I can navigate around my city effortlessly, but I’m not someone-else’s-street smart. Don’t expect me to know the rules in Tokyo, NYC or Rio. I don’t expect a Japanese person to know the NYC, Rio, or SF rules and I don’t expect a Brazilian to know them either.

I rode with him anyways because all this people on hacker news told me using an app instead of a Taxi would mean I would lose my freedom. I have him an address… which he put in an app that surely is the exception and doesn’t misuse it. Realistically, this taxi driver just didn’t want to drive to Manhattan during rush hour, and knew damn well where Chelsea is. We all knew this was the reality. But at the airport there’s a queue for taxis and he was next in line and had to take me.

I actually took a taxi instead of Uber because in NY they use regulatory capture to ensure they have better airport placement than Uber and I chose that “convenience”. I think Uber is way more freeing than a taxi because I can go to almost any metro in the US and get a ride without having to learn the local system. It’s a tap away. It’s way more freeing and has emboldened me to explore more than I might otherwise. That is freedom.

Giving them an address for pickup works as well as a location based tracking and allows you to tell them to meet you 5 blocks away if you are on the move when you call.

The driver didn't know the neighbourhood nickname you gave..did you give them an address? You have to searching the map on Uber anyways, did you search your google map for the address?

Taxis will go down the streets you tell them while you drive. Turn left or right next lights work. It's more flexible than ubers pre determined route.

Immigrants have more street smarts than you give them credit for. They literally uprooted their lives from places who generally scam more than the places they move to. They have taken a scammier cab ride before they even left their home country.

> The driver didn't know the neighbourhood nickname you gave

Chelsea is a large, well-known neighborhood in Manhattan. It's had the same name since the 1700s. It is not an obscure nickname.

> Giving them an address for pickup works as well as a location based tracking and allows you to tell them to meet you 5 blocks away if you are on the move when you call.

Or you can just put a note in the app when you order and send messages. They can also call you.

If you don’t speak their language, the Uber app does translations.

> Immigrants have more street smarts than you give them credit for

When I spent 3 weeks in Los Cabos, Mexico. I had no street smarts, I didn’t know the language and when we were stuck in traffic, Uber automatically sent calls because it noticed we weren’t moving.

> The driver didn't know the neighbourhood nickname you gave..did you give them an address?

They asked for the neighborhood not the address because that’s how pricing is determined. When you’re a taxi driver… you learn the neighborhoods. Especially one of the most well known neighborhoods on manhattan.

> Immigrants have more street smarts than you give them credit for.

I mean no ill towards immigrants. Immigration is scary and hard. But being “street smart” in a different city doesn’t always translate directly. They’re not expected to know that they’re about to be scammed! They shouldn’t be getting scammed!

No. It's 2023. You're expected to take credit cards like it says on the little logo on the window. If your credit card machine is broken, your Taxi is broken and you can't pick up fares unless YOU tell them ahead of time that it's cash only.

If this happens to me I simply tell the driver I don't have any cash and exit the vehicle. Now if you have luggage in the trunk this of course gets a little more complicated. Somehow the credit card machine amazingly comes back to life as I'm getting out.

> Why is that better? Cos it's accessed via smartphone for some reason?

No, at least the ideal is there's a functional reputation system for drivers and riders. Of course, if corporate is going to scam you, too, and if they're going to make less than 5 stars a death penalty for a driver, and if the app and payments are always buggy, then /shrug it all stinks.

Cab drivers are the real ones getting scammed, unfortunately, and rarely have any way of recourse. When paying with card, they are rarely paid in a timely manner, if they get the proper amount at all. This is even before uber made medallions worthless. When I was growing up, it was a matter of common courtesy to use cash in situations like that, where you know the employer is going to play games with the employee when you pay with card, like a cabbie's fare or a waitress' tip. As we got older, most of us who worked in service industries & survived on tips knew this the hard way because we were also a victim of wage theft via skimming tips, etc.

I'm glad my city isn't allowing certain businesses to go completely cash free for this reason. The push to force credit card payments everywhere just hurts a class of people that are already vulnerable.

Yes I totally agree. When businesses push for going cashless, they are often doing it to claw back the tips customers are giving their workers.

Tips that have become customary because it's become accepted that a waiter mustn't be paid a living wage. Why has it become accepted, because we have a hidden caste system.

But the customers get to feel cool to frequent a place that 'gets it' because cash is or old people.

The so-called 'hidden caste system' that has tipped employees at the top of the F&B food chain, earning significantly more than back-of-house staff like bussers and chefs?

Yeah, exactly the same caste system. I didn't say only waiters were in a lower caste. This kind of bullshit is everywhere.

Some establishments pool the tips (cash ones) and use to distribute it to the bussers (don't know about the cooking staff). Obviously this was not a universal practice.

This incredible scope creep in the customer's responsibilities (not just price, but I somehow have to adjust for a vague sense of the employer-employee relationship, for ethical/ESG considerations, etc. etc.) is just... overwhelming. I shouldn't be responsible for your employment relationship, that is between you, your employer, and the relevant regulatory authority.

> this incredible scope creep in the customer's responsibilities

It's the difference between being a consumer and being a citizen.

I never said you're responsible. I said it's a courtesy. If that's too much to ask from you, then, so be it.

agree, I dont have time to learn details of employer-employee relationships of each company I buy stuff from.

Just put the whole price upfront and thats it, let the market forces find equilibrium

Yes because most people get paid everyday.

> I'm glad my city isn't allowing certain businesses to go completely cash free for this reason. The push to force credit card payments everywhere just hurts a class of people that are already vulnerable.

And forget about the vulnerability of the merchants who have to worry about being robbed.

I don't believe this. I think that the real reason that cab drivers don't want to accept credit cards is because they don't want to pay taxes on the money like everyone else has to. Sorry buddy, your inability to evade taxes is not my problem.

I refuse to believe that not cheating people by default, and not expecting others to cheat me by default, is synonymous with acting "more like machines than people". What a cynical, depressing world view.

That comment wasn't about cheating it was about the communication medium. I.e. communicating via text or app vs. face to face. I.e. talking to each other like we're computers instead of face to face like people.

I’ve stepped foot in 18 different cities in the past year where I’ve used Uber - mostly personal but a few business.

Why would I ever go through this in every city I go to instead of using Uber?

Getting scammed and having a poor experience isn't the kind of friction we should be encouraging. I don't think that conjecture holds much water.

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