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Comment by desert_rue | Hacker News Reader

I majored in construction management in school. I was the only one in my major who didn’t grow up with a father, uncle, or grandfather in the trades.

It is often hard, grueling work. I was a project manager so I didn’t ‘perform’ any of the work, but I was still up scaffolding and down in muddy pits. The laborers are out in the worst weather day and night and make decent money- but totally wreck their bodies.

So it is a combination of people being steered away from labor jobs into college, not knowing an entry point without family ties, and grueling hard work. I’m surprised anything gets built.

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One reason why elites tolerate so much illegal immigration is that they will do back breaking labor, often under the table or with illegal papers, and never complain with minimal wages. That labor is needed to keep the system working.

To be clear I am an “open borders” guy but both political parties in the US make a lot of noise but never change anything.

Minimal wages is relative. I imagine that most people do it because those wages let them support their families and build a house / start a business back home. The crossing takes about a year to pay back, and there are living costs, but many work double shift at different jobs, with one paycheque going for living costs in the US and the other for savings/family/setting themselves up for a better life back home. 5-6 years "echando ganas" and you can be set for life. It's a pretty rational thing to do, much like pensioners who retire "down south".

Of course it’s rational - my primary point was that the left pretends to want to make citizenship for undocumented workers easier, and the right to kick them all out, but for the last 30 years we have been at a stalemate and more people come to the US illegally than ever. IMO both sides like the status quo and endlessly hype to their base but never intend to do anything.

I agree with that. It was surprising to me how easy it seems to be in the US to get by as an undocumented worker, compared to in many places in Europe for example. It's also surprising how mandatory eVerify hasn't been rolled out in all states, despite being in existence for more than 20 years.

It is not surprising. Those in leadership positions intentionally look the other way because they and their cohorts benefit from the cheaper labor. They openly issue paltry fines to giant companies found to be violating the law.

If they really wanted to, they could easily make it a jailable felony to not eVerify employment status of immigrants.

I think this is key. If the jobs paid enough for Americans to do the same thing in their hometowns after 5-6 yrs of work then Americans would sign up for these "labor shortage" jobs.

> To be clear I am an “open borders” guy but both political parties in the US make a lot of noise but never change anything.

Significant changes in immigration system were made through law in the 1960s, 1980s, and 1990s; the inability to reach a sufficient consensus to pass legislation (both divided government and the weaponization of the filibuster to functionally act as a supermajority requirement for almost any legislation in the Senate have played a role in preventing legislation) has resulted in most changes since then being by executive action, with drastically different approaches between the parties. “Both parties make noise but never change anything” is, well, quite false.

It always boils down to insufficient pay to quality of life ratio relative to other options for the labor seller.

Comparitive advantage rears its ugly head. Unfortunately you can't outsource construction.

People in wealthy countries would rather make $20/hr working from home or an air conditioned office than $45/hr laying asphalt.

Change that to $200 per hour and the supply curves will start to shift.

Construction companies do not have the profit margin to do that, and cities and homebuyers can barely afford construction costs as they are. Construction companies cannot charge much more than they are charging now. The market cannot support that and things start to break down.

There's already a huge infrastructure cost issue in the US. Can they afford more? How much more?

> Construction companies do not have the profit margin

Then there's a lot of construction happening that does not need to happen.

Steins Law: if something cannot go on, it will stop.

Looks like we're opting for the unplanned sudden stop instead of the planned gradual stop.

>Can they afford more? How much more?

Apparently not then. Expectations of quality of life will have to be adjusted downwards (has already been happening).

Of course, society could stop giving healthcare to people 90+, or 80+, and reallocate some resources from there. It all depends on who has the political power in society, but generally, with a stagnant/decreasing younger age population, the fault lines will increasingly show along various age groups.

Of course, society could stop giving tax breaks to huge corporations, and fund the IRS so that tax revenues are effectively generated. We know who has the political power in society, it has little to do with age demographics.

Voting for tax breaks to corporations and not funding the IRS are very correlated with age demographics.

How are they wrecking their bodies? If they don't get injured, isn't the work pretty healthy, like exercise?

Exercising 8 hours a day for 40 years, where much of the “exercise” involves inefficient postures which put load on joints and tendons. This isn’t a session at the local gym with nice machines using movements specifically designed for safety.

Even if it were at the gym, it would be a miracle to do that amount of it without simply over-using your bits.

Shit, we get RSI and carpal tunnel syndrome from typing. What is the weight carried by, or repetition of, that by that vs any trade?

Exactly. Even in a gym, proper exercise form is essential for preventing injury. At work, proper form often isn't a realistic option.

Working out in a gym 8h/day doesn't sound healthy either.

Alot of loads they carry can become completely impossible for human physiology to carry by having to extend any weight too far from your body. Or pieces of material that weigh above 150kg. No safety intstruction can prevent guys from hoisting that up on their own if it needs to be done in order to continue working. That in addition to lots of chemicals, sprays, fiberglass and dust in the air makes it a health nightmare.

Micro-injuries every day.

Pulled muscles.

Sprains.

Tendon and ligament tears.

Vertebra damage from lifting too fast or incorrectly.

Falls. These are usually life altering.

Not using PPE because it takes too long or impedes your vision or it causes you to sweat more or you just don't want the rest of the crew to call you a pussy.

Hearing damage (because no PPE).

Cuts and bruises because you didn't wear gloves.

Sunburn every day which means skin cancer is guaranteed eventually.

Long term exposure to stuff like concrete dust, fiberglas insulation, sawdust from treated wood, volatile organics etc which can wreck your lungs.

Poor nutrition because of too-short lunch breaks and unavailability of non-processed food.

Getting ripped apart by heavy powered equipment because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time and somebody did something stupid. Again, life altering.

Frequent alcohol use to ease the aches and pains built up during the day.

But mostly just hard damn physical activity in brutal conditions 8-12 hours a day. Do this for 20 years and it ages you fast and wears out your body.

This is not exercise at the indoor gym with safe equipment under the supervision of a coach. This is "get your ass up that ladder with 100 lbs of shingles on your shoulder without a stinking safety rope and fast, or you're fired."

What about OSHA? OSHA on construction sites is not really a thing I've seen, and if anybody mentioned an OSHA violation they would probably be fired. And since much of the labor force is undocumented, they ain't gonna report a violation anyway, lest they get discovered and deported.

Sounds like chronic toxic employers then?

Yea, the construction and trades industry has a lot of toxic employers, you know, middle aged or older "manly man" syndrome individuals.

They are shocked that younger people don't want to join the trades and experience shit pay and daily hazing until they become a real tradesman.

There are good employers out there but they are far and few between. Union jobs are also decentish but also not common outside a few places.

Yes. That’s every employeer outside of kush tech jobs. Again, most people don’t get anything close to Herman Miller chairs and UPLIFT desk.

Hate to break it to you but in most western countries all the non exec employees in an office building get the same chairs.

Probably the only ones with Herman Miller and other expensive chairs are the receptionists. ;)

The financial services company I work for employs 5k people. Everyone has HM chairs.

In healthcare and there's very explicit rules about how one is to approach, lift and transfer or roll patients, who weigh more than the staff attending to them. Even including a count of staff-per-weight ratio. Sadly, I imagine if one took the same precautions in construction, you'd be told to hurry tf up and you're on your own.

Compare this to EMS, where unless you're lucky enough to be fire or hospital based, worker protections are almost nonexistent.

And even there workers get hurt and are pressured to do some tasks with less assistance. Unfortunately it isn't hard to do just a little bit too much and get hurt.

I know several healthcare professionals with permanently screwed up backs because a patient was falling and they went to catch the patient. Much like an I-beam falling on you, you don't always get to pick and choose what you have to deal with.

I asked a couple nurses I know and they have never heard of this "staff-to-weight" ratio. At least here in America most hospitals operate on staff-to-patient ratio. I suppose this could be different in other countries.

Texas just nullified a law which required 10 minute breaks for construction workers every 4 hours[0]. I do not even do back breaking labor in the sun and I take significantly more breaks throughout the day.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/23/greg-abbott-...

I suspect most construction companies will ensure their workers get plenty of water. If only because people who drink enough water on hot days get a lot more done in the day.

I agree with you that incentives are aligned and disagree that this means that the companies will actually do the smart thing.

This law means nothing in practice. If you are working construction in the Texas heat, you need to drink water every 10-30 minutes, not just once every 4 hours. I can't imagine an employer lasting long if they didn't allow their employees to drink water when needed (and visit the portapotty accordingly). When I worked construction in the summer in a place nowhere near as hot as Texas, I drank 1-2 gallons of water a day, and it wasn't just on a few legally mandated breaks.

Every construction site I've seen has a water cooler and the people are allowed to take a drink every time they walk by. Either that or the people all come to work with their own water which they bring with them all day to drink when they want. Nobody cares about the few seconds lost to someone having a drink.

Looking at the 'most' in the comment I replied to initially, my comment isn't well phrased. I agree with that entirely.

Micro-injuries every day.

Pulled muscles.

Sprains.

Tendon and ligament tears.

Vertebra damage from lifting too fast or incorrectly.

Falls. These are usually life altering.

Not using PPE because it takes too long or impedes your vision or it causes you to sweat more or you just don't want the rest of the crew to call you a pussy.

Hearing damage (because no PPE).

Cuts and bruises because you didn't wear gloves.

Sunburn every day which means skin cancer is guaranteed eventually.

Long term exposure to stuff like concrete dust, fiberglas insulation, sawdust from treated wood, volatile organics etc which can wreck your lungs.

Poor nutrition because of too-short lunch breaks and unavailability of non-processed food.

Getting ripped apart by heavy powered equipment because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time and somebody did something stupid. Again, life altering.

Frequent alcohol use to ease the aches and pains built up during the day.

But mostly just hard damn physical activity in brutal conditions 8-12 hours a day. Do this for 20 years and it ages you fast and wears out your body.

(My experience is probably too limited. I'm mostly talking about residential construction. I suspect large commercial projects get more OSHA oversight. But it's still very hard, damaging work.)

This is honestly a pretty good description that tracks with my experience (except watching someone getting ripped apart).

That’s a big if. My dad wrecked his back just getting down from his backhoe/skid loader/whatever it was. The ladder only went so close to the ground. You do something like that multiple times per day for so many years and eventually something will probably give.

He also got buried alive once.

Just doing renovations on my house every weekend, I constantly notice bruises and cuts at the end of the day. So like that, but 8 hour days instead of 4 hour days, and 5-7 days a week.

1-2 hours a day of exercise is easy. You stop when you want to, and can take time off. There are literally machines that guide the exact path your weight takes so as to avoid injury. Weights are symmetrical and designed to be held and carried. Workout conditions are generally comfortable or at least tolerable. The likelihood of you dying or getting hurt cuz of someone else not knowing what to do in a gym is low to negligable.

Meanwhile it's 4:41am, and you're going to be working for the next 8 hours on your feet lifting 80 lb things at weird angles in high humidity. Half of your staff may be Hispanic day laborers and not speak English, and the other half may range from the semi-literate to get-in-get-out experienced tradies who DGAF about your problems cuz they're only on site for 1 day. When they fail to nail a board in properly it falls on you, not a serious injury or anything but another scratch and bruise. And then you get to do the same thing tomorrow.

The problem is that repetitive work is inherently injurious. Also, working under high pressure is very likely to lead to mistakes that cause injury.

I did hard physical labor for eight years and felt great (it's honestly the best I've ever felt physically and I miss it), but I did not do repetitive work or work under extreme pressure. We were always strongly encouraged to take tons of water breaks, not rush, switch tasks several times a day, and stop working immediately if something started hurting or didn't feel right.

If people are regularly wearing themselves out on physical labor, it's the fault of management.

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