India’s diaspora is bigger and more influential than any in history
economist.com
economist.com
The article also brushes up against caste, but doesn't explore the role of caste networks in tech.
If that's the "bridge to the west" that India is pushing, I hope some of those tendencies are stamped out, hard.
There is irreparable damage being done to the Indian psyche, and it is not going to be contained (unlike, for example, if it was China). Especially considering the impending climate disaster is going to disproportionately affect India and neighbors, resulting in social disaster, mass migration of a scale not seen before.
Indian problems are increasingly world problems.
But I am glad once again the world (ahem, the West) deigned to "fix" India before fixing themselves.
People need to stop thinking as if borders are natural phenomenon.
Devil's advocate: this actually may have more to do with culture generally than religion specifically. Muslim countries may still have more clan-based / tribal social structures:
> Henrich’s ambition is tricky: to account for Western distinctiveness while undercutting Western arrogance. He rests his grand theory of cultural difference on an inescapable fact of the human condition: kinship, one of our species’ “oldest and most fundamental institutions.” Though based on primal instincts— pair-bonding, kin altruism—kinship is a social construct, shaped by rules that dictate whom people can marry, how many spouses they can have, whether they define relatedness narrowly or broadly. Throughout most of human history, certain conditions prevailed: Marriage was generally family-adjacent—Henrich’s term is “cousin marriage”—which thickened the bonds among kin. Unilateral lineage (usually through the father) also solidified clans, facilitating the accumulation and intergenerational transfer of property. Higher-order institutions—governments and armies as well as religions—evolved from kin-based institutions. As families scaled up into tribes, chiefdoms, and kingdoms, they didn’t break from the past; they layered new, more complex societies on top of older forms of relatedness, marriage, and lineage. Long story short, in Henrich’s view, the distinctive flavor of each culture can be traced back to its earlier kinship institutions.
[…]
> Why, if Italy has been Catholic for so long, did northern Italy become a prosperous banking center, while southern Italy stayed poor and was plagued by mafiosi? The answer, Henrich declares, is that southern Italy was never conquered by the Church-backed Carolingian empire. Sicily remained under Muslim rule and much of the rest of the south was controlled by the Orthodox Church until the papal hierarchy finally assimilated them both in the 11th century. This is why, according to Henrich, cousin marriage in the boot of Italy and Sicily is 10 times higher than in the north, and in most provinces in Sicily, hardly anyone donates blood (a measure of willingness to help strangers), while some northern provinces receive 105 donations of 16-ounce bags per 1,000 people per year.
* https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/10/joseph-...
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WEIRDest_People_in_the_Wor...
Look at the rates of (non-paid) blood donations, cousin marriage, and corruption, and you'll see high correlations:
* https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Blood-donation-rates-per...
* https://vividmaps.com/global-rates-of-consanguineous/
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
Eastern versus western regions of Turkey is interesting:
So no, I’m not going to engage with it.
EDIT: it looks like you’re from India, so you may not be aware of this. In most western countries engaging in workplace discrimination based on religion would get you into serious trouble, and quite likely fired. Not only is it illegal, it’s bad for business (losing a potentially valuable senior staff member because they’re the “wrong religion” has seriously hurt our project). Your reaction is quite telling though.
And no, I was not assuming you are American. But in the context of this website the constitution refers to the US constitution. What I said also applies to many other constitutions.
Fortunately you don’t make the law. But, regardless, he not only violated company policy and also broke the law, his “personal preferences” put a large program of work at risk.
You leave your prejudices at the door and hire the best people for the job: one of the fundamental rules for (non-f*d) businesses.
Do you agree or not that any law limiting hiring practices should be justified or not?
If so, how do you justify religion over other criteria that are personal choices of the candidate like style, cleanliness, politeness etc?
How do you even propose to discover criteria if you start with a clean list?
I generally agree about the business point, but you seem to belive religion has no impact on fulfilling one's duties regardless of the nature of business, which is dubious even in common important professions like doctors.
In any case, most people are born into a religion and have no real choice in the matter. They acquire various markers of their religion (a name for example) from their parents. You seem to think it’s a personal choice, but for the vast majority of people that’s not the case.
In the context of the person whose resume was rejected, he was not considered for the job based on his name and his educational history, which marked him as a Muslim. Even if we accept your argument that religious practice is a choice that can be discriminated against, there is no indication that he actually was a practicing Muslim (I don’t know if he was) he was rejected, sight unseen, because of those markers.
Both Chinese CCP and Indian BJP recruit international students studying in the US for spreading propaganda. Maybe more- information gathering, spying... I don't know. I found average Chinese grads very tight lipped about their internal politics. While I didn't encounter any supposed Chinese recruit face to face, I saw Indians who, very amiable and friendly when met in person, would be sharing and posting misinformation and hate speech on social media on a regular basis.
The Chinese diplomacy is very very good and hard working. Their diplomats are constantly travelling and that includes both major and small countries.
Due to the "cpp baggage" China is big, influential and has much higher domestic level of life than India.
Why do you think so many Indians are leaving the country? Have you ever been to India?
If you compare China to its direct neighbour with a similar population, India, you clearly see that they were far more adept at developing their economy. There is a reason the article focus on the diaspora. That’s because the situation inside the country is not that rosy.
I think American have a very biased view of China due to the strong anti-Chinese propaganda going on in your media.
They are either less willing to integrate into the US due to the their ccp upgringing, or more prone to be targeted to be purged(see the recent trump purge of the Chinese scientists), or more prone to actual go back and work with the ccp again.
In contrast, the Indians are much closer to the US society, many Indians actually thinks that the US is just a better and richer version of India(source my Indian friends).
Whatever the CCP's effect on Chinese domestic life, their authoritarianism and Uyghur genocode have made China incredibly unpopular among the voters in the world's strongest economies, especially the US.
In fact, they're driving Western companies from China to India, which will hugely decrease their global influence.
"Uyghur genocide" is a kind of scarecrow that US invents every time when it prepares to destroy an opponent. If a country possesses large deposits of oil (Iraq, Libya) there would be one kind of scarecrow to justify bombing. If the country becomes too influential and threatens US hegemony, there would be another kind of scarecrow.
The only thing that is these libels tell: USA is preparing to attack the country and they need a justification for further bombing.
E.g. I'm 90% sure USA is preparing to start a proxy war with China using Taiwan as pretext and cannon fodder. Just like the war in Ukraine which is actually war between USA and Russia.
But if you compare PRC with for instance Taiwan/ROC, it’s clear that China could have been much more powerful and influential than they are today if they hadn’t been so distracted by disastrous communist ideology/fantasy. They had a chance at becoming the number one superpower, but they blew it.
Actually, now that I think about it, with the raw number of people speaking every language, you may be exactly right! I've been thinking in terms of percentages (x% of the population speaks y language, so it's probably not language that's the binding factor), but with India's sheer size, just the raw population (that x% might be 300 million people), it doesn't matter!
If you limit your view to the Western world of the last 20-30 years everything the author says about the Indian diaspora and the comparison is correct. But then the "in history" needs to be removed from the headline.
Similarly the Economist's comparison of 18M Indian migrants vs 10M Chinese in the world today doesn't really tell the whole story - by most accounts there are 40M+ overseas Chinese scattered across the globe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese
Ultimately PRC would take increased Chinese (as in the country) global influence, by simply being 5x the size of India because "CCP baggage" allowed her to transfer, retain and coordinate more domestic talent, over increased Chinese diasphora influence in the US anyday. Functionally, CCP baggage didn't prevent plurality of foreign students being from PRC (again because 5x richer), which translates to knowledge flow back to PRC. Recent NBER study on Indian brain drain to US had some crazy figures like 90% of top 10, 60% of top 1000, 36% of top 100 Indian IIT rankers gets brain drained to US. That may be good for Indian influence in the US, but not for India. Meanwhile ethnically Chinese talent is flowing back to PRC because >4% of US being Chinese = not enough political power to prevent another red scare regardless.
What's more benefitial for PRC, diasphora that also makes PRC stronger or diasphora that exclusively makes US stronger. It's the former. PRC extracts more benefits from diasphora with a few decades of successfully lobbying the much more influential US business interests.
Second, no, there are not relevant historical ties there anymore. Otherwise you could argue that Italy has ties to Egypt due to the Romans or Greece has ties to India due to Alexander.
Perhaps India should acknowledge it‘s own history before lecturing Europe, which is a history of surpressing the scheduled castes - in many ways comparable to the Roma.
gypsie communities are incredibly narrow minded, conservative and sexist, I find it perplexing that typical left wing people tend to support them. I guess they don't really know what's up because they've never met any.
gypsies actively shun their own that go to school. Not university or college. School.
they buy their wives from their parents.
they expect everything from the state/host society, and give nothing back.
I am however glad you made this comment.
I want the world to learn about what’s happening in europe. Both east and west are guilty of an ongoing genocide and no one wants to talk about it and rectify this atrocious mistake.
I hope Indians will not take this kindly, because even though Romany are European there are some in their community that are proud of their origin and seek closer ties. And to be fair I would support any political movement that wants to help these people get back on their feet and one way is even more vocal support from India (Mody already acknowledged their origin). Roma people are valuable to Europe. They are a folk that need to emerge and assert their rightful place in Europe’s history.
> I would support any political movement that wants to help these people get back on their feet
It is them who do not want something different. Imposing your view on their world does not work, they do not want change.
What exactly are their contributions that make them valuable to Europe?
But see, it’s difficult to get them to open up. Many hide their identity as well as they can due to fear of abuse.
Confusing the criminal minority in their community with their culture is wrong. And i am suspecting you are making this confusion. Roma people are not what you think they are.
I went to prison, which coincidentally is packed with gypsies (and not because they are being discriminated against). I've met countless gypsies, their families, etc.
An ex girlfriend used to voluntarily go to the gypsy camp with a mobile school to teach them basic, primary school stuff. They did not want to learn and only made sexist comments (the kids.).
Gypsies unfortunately have no place in a post industrial western society. Sure, their seemingly anarchistic lifestyle is romantic and attractive, but it is far from the reality.
I spoke with Romany PHd students, bachelor students, authors, entrepreneurs, people that like you and eye slave away for a day off or for good daily rate.
They almost all do their best to hide their identity and ethnicity. In countries such as Austria, Germany, Sweden, Finland, even the slightest suspicion that you are Gypsy can result in verbal and physical, abuse. Policies of entire countries are made around it.
Some people may say that you went to prison because you didn't want better. Both you and I know there is nuance to it.
If you, your mother, your father, your family, your friends have all been raised in povery, marginalisation, and lived in constant fear of reprisal you would have done what the Roma do. You would have isolated yourself where you found confort. I know I would have.
The Roma didn't have the opportunity I did, they were almost always pushed aside. I know because I spoke to a bunch of Roma students that where afraid to reveal they were Roma to the point they shivered. We had to speak about it in private almost as if they were being hunted.
I also know because I knew a Swiss professors who shared racist jokes about them without shame. German, French, Romania, Dutch, and so on.
I don't deny there is a criminal element in their society and culture. Equally I don't deny there's good, and we need to dig for that good as we do in our "own".
India has had a long history of trading with rome, greece and the rest of europe for at least 3500years.
Communism tried to integrate them into society by force (if you didn't work the work state assigned you, you went straight to jail, or gave them whole apartment blocks which they destroyed beyond repair, see [1]), it worked till the iron hand fell with iron curtain and Roma unemployment reached 98-99% levels. Most, at least in Slovakia, continue to live in extremely basic illegal slums, see [2]. Its still quite normal to see naked kids run around in dirt all year long, including heavy snow.
There are massive health and social issues within community, addictions, parasites and other easily treatable sickness, massive amount of incests, by 15 most Roma girls are already mothers (seen it myself in school), standard amount of kids parents have is 10-12 to get most out of social support. States and society basically gave up, there is no quick solution, and solution that may work would take at least 5-10 election periods, so nobody bothers.
[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=lunik+IX&client=firefox-b-d&...
[2] https://www.google.com/search?q=roma+settlements+in+eastern+...
“Integration” is an euphemism for erasure. Their unique culture shouldn’t be mistaken for what some elements of their society do thanks to centuries of marginalisation, genocide and slavery.
An assertive India may be beneficial to them. Mody has acknowledged their origin. And although they are a European folk I am resorting to India as that may be their only hope of support for emergence.
As I told another commenter I am glad for your reply. I want people to learn about how the Roma live, and how they are treated and I want them to hear it from those that don’t like them.
There are more Romani living in Eastern Europe now than there were 60 years ago.
It's the world's worst executed genocide.
It absolutely was the case. Roma slavery in Romania is a well known part of history.[0] It doesn’t matter that they might have been banned from cities, because slavery put them to work on e.g. boyars’ and monastic estates.
> gave them whole apartment blocks which they destroyed beyond repair
Some Roma communities have a code of ritual purity similar to kosher laws in Judaism. Dwellings fall into disrepair once a generation has died in them. It is a failure of public housing policy that this factor was not taken into account when serving the needs of this particular community.
They didn't leave India because India was being nice to them...
So there's shame on both sides.
For those unaware, Dalits are "untouchables", the lowest Indian caste.
Really puts paid to the affirmative action fueled india-bad-caste-bad-hindu-bad notion that gets so much traction in Europe.
https://www.travellerstimes.org.uk/features/feature-roma-and...
This link claims that they were captured by the mongols and brought to europe where they were then enslaved, for instance, by romanians and by others.
Other sources indeed claim that they fled india as they were a lower caste and while initially allowed to live freely they were eventually enslaved.
I know for a fact that in Romania they were enslaved - there are articles in the Romanian media showing ads from the interwar period where roma slaves were sold on the open market. In some regions they were still slaves until the early 90s (they were called “sluga”).
The fact that we know little about their history and there are virtually no museums or places to learn about it is quite telling. Western europe for instance completely erases their history and uniqueness by conflating them with romanians.
All I can gather are sparse sources, but they all point to india, slavery, and loads and loads of historical abuse towards them.
Their history is super sad, yes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjay_Gandhi#Compulsory_steri...
As an Indian, I feel both fear and cheer about the "Indian influence".
India has been a deeply hierarchical society for a millenniums, and people of Indian subcontinent (I like the term "Thaalis") still have this inertial, hierarchical mental holdover, conscious or otherwise. My hope is that instead of it manifesting[1][2], it is challenged and defeated in the long run. And 'the good parts' are utilised for the betterment of the world.
(Of course, it is never a one-way street, influence is dialectic. In many ways Thaali itself has been deeply influenced by the world. Not saying that's a good or a bad thing necessarily)
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Discovery_of_India
[1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/06/02/google-...
[2]: https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/caste-...
Let's not forget "Namaste".
The total number of Indians in the US is ~3M [0].
Given the relatively miniscule number of Indians (or Chinese) in the US, I'd actually say both have had an outsized impact on the host country.
"Dominating" is a different notion. I cannot imagine a peaceful path to that end.
[0] https://www.immigrationresearch.org/indian-immigrants-in-the...
So the Indian diaspora split into dozens of smaller groups could provide the same level of support as a hypothetical unified diaspora, each group contributing to their ancestral region's development, just like the Chinese diaspora.