Larne Craigyhill bonfire: 17000 pallets (2021) | Hacker News Reader

Larne Craigyhill bonfire: 17000 pallets (2021)

belfastlive.co.uk

23 pointsdaverol55 comments

My Dad grew up in Belfast during the troubles, and was raised protestant. It's always been really interesting to me to hear his perspective on stuff like this, as he is always sort of amazed by how normalised things like putting effegies of the pope on these was back then. And how he never really thought about it until he moved, not exactly far, to Edinburgh and understood that Belfast was a place very different to most of the world at the time.

He talks often about how you would have photos of the Mayor of Belfast shaking hands with loyalist leaders infront of one of these bonfires with the effigy of the Pope in the background and it would be seen as a good thing, a positive PR moment for the mayor.

It's still not dead obviously, but less publicly endorsed.

Here's some from just last year with images of the pope, the palestinian flag (there's an undercurrent of NI Republican solidarity with Palestine), and the tricolour: https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2022/07/1...

Edinburgh isn't, or at least wasn't, completely free of sectarian problems (obviously not as bad as NI) - we used to live close to the Hibs ground on Easter Road and when Rangers visited it wasn't exactly a pleasant atmosphere. Mind you - that was 25+ years ago!

I don't think it's ever going away. Rangers just announced their away shirt for next season (blue and orange stripes) and you had a weird situation with rangers fans both feigning innocence "why are you so offended by a colour?" in one thread and giggling about how having an orange kit will wind up the Celtic supporters in another.

Isn't the pope burning still pretty common throughout england?

No. The standard bonfire topper is Guy Fawkes or nothing. There are a handful of places that go for the pope (Lewes perhaps?) but anti-Catholicism is much weaker than it used to be in England.

I'd say that for a couple of generations at least (and perhaps further) those taking part in Guy Fawkes bonfires and fireworks did so because it's the thing you do on that day, not out of some anti-catholic sentiment. So while it's likely a big part of how this "celebration" got started, and everyone will have learned about it all in school, I think the vast majority of people in Britain itself (i.e. Scotland, England and Wales) don't believe or realise they're taking part in something with sectarian roots. I can't speak for how people in Northern Ireland feel, however.

I was never interested in it, really, as I don't like fireworks. I did find it entertaining once when I was a kid, we had just moved to a fishing village and they were struggling to light the bonfire. So some guys poured petrol on the fire, lit a flare and threw it on the bonfire :D

For anyone interested in learning more, VICE did a decent documentary back in 2012 where they visit Belfast and speak to some of the people involved at a different bonfire site.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nzDuiv3U8o

I ended up going to Belfast the weekend of the bonfires without knowing it existed beforehand--was a totally surreal experience. The largest man-made fires I'd ever seen right in the middle of the city streets, armored cars driving around, not many safety protocols. Kids were drinking buckfast and climbing to the top of skinny stacks that had to be over 100 feet tall.

I would definitely recommend checking it out to anyone that can.

Some pictures I just googled: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/eleventh-night.html?sortBy...

Logistics professionals hate them, learn how to destroy 3/4 of a million dollars using this one weird trick.

The article quotes the price at 20k

Are you inclined to believe that a pallet is worth less than £1.18?

I’m not an expert in the pallet supply chain, but that seems extraordinarily low to me.

If they are broken, why not? You can't use them to transport goods safely and they contain nails so people will hesitate to put them in a wood burner.

Near me (East of England) there seems to be no end of offers of free pallets from building and manufacturing trades - posts on local groups or adverts for as many pallets as you can take away. I was tempted to get some for a project, but the time to break them down put me off.

Usable pallets are quite valuable in the right place.

Broken pallets or ones in the wrong place are scrap.

The biggest fire the North has ever seen!

Here it is burning up in 2021: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2i6xpWmh-Q

I cannot believe that’s how they light it.

Attempts to normalize this as some kind of folksy traditional community bonfire thing requires such levels of misdirection and sleight of a hand that they'd be better off doing magic shows in Vegas. These kinds of events are purely and simply displays of racist and sectarian hate - no different from burning crosses in Alabama.

The effigies of the Pope are the more friendly of the things burned on these bonfires, the less palatable include Irish and Basque flags for whatever reason, slogans exhorting genocide, and even pictures of previous sectarian murder victims [1][2].

It's a thoroughly vile event that happens each year, wrapped up in some false sense of "culture".

[1] - https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/sectarian-bo...

[2] - https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/pol...

Apart from anything else, do you really want to be around burning pallets? Who knows what kind of chemicals have been used on them? I used to see pallets set out free for the taking, and never ever considered using them in a fireplace.

It’s even a little pity that this wild senselessness was so rushed.

After all, it was possible to time such a large symbolic burning of logistics for the Elbakyan's EFF award.

Because The Absurdity must be brought to the limit.

A hugely divisive protestant celebration of the occupation and ascendency of England over Ireland in 1690.

It's an impressive bonfire. It celebrates sectarianism. Not unlike November 11 it's got unpleasant overtones.

I wonder what level of fire safety distancing they do, and how it scales linearly or non linearly to size. I could believe this size of fire would loft burning materials for miles and affect air quality, as well as the environment. It's industrial pallets often.

We English love Guy Fawkes. What you on about? Let people have their fun!

Guy Fawkes night is on the 5th.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleventh_Night

A possible confusion here is MYD vs YMD both bonfire nights having an 11 in them. And I did say guy fawkes night as a comparator to July 11, both have roots in anti catholic fervour.

You go right ahead and blow your fingers off. (Terry Pratchett's footnote about being allowed to light one firework carefully from 15 feet away with a long stick comes to mind)

Historically the Catholic church and Cathloc monarchs did make claims and undertook actions that threatened the security and freedom of Protestants, and the Irish Republic made claims over the North that Protestants saw as a threat, so the bonfires and parades with their positive self assertion can be understood in this context.

That said, I think we can all condemn oblique hatred of the other side, and that's very much present in both sides.

When was the last time a Catholic monarch threatened Northern Ireland? And How many divisions has the Pope?

The key word was ‘historically’, when relating to the likes of James or Bloody Mary. Lots of people feel deeply connected to their history and struggle, why should Northern Protestants be deprived of theirs?

The Pope had something more powerful than divisions: words and authority over his flock. Back in the day that commanded more loyalty than to monarch.

But in recent times, the source of the violence was the IRA and other Republican groups.

and the phrase "violently opposed by Ulster loyalists" never once was uttered during the time of the troubles?

Nor indeed the sentence "The police, the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC), were overwhelmingly Protestant and known for sectarianism and police brutality.?

Pretty sure it takes two side to keep that shit up for three decades and more.

( Both extracts sourced from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles )

I’d just ask that external observers try to understand the Protestant and Unionist side too. They are often maligned in a simplistic ‘good vs evil’ narrative. You’d be surprised by their hospitality and industry.

I’’d never deny that there was brutality and violence from both sides, any ethno-religious conflict with long roots in the past is going to have this problem.

Targeting of civilians is wrong, and it always happens in these conflicts, which is why we should strive to avoid them. Targeting of combatants and mingling the categories to give cover, well that’s something else completely. It puts the authorities in a tricky situation where the right choices aren’t obvious.

This is from 2021.

Added. Thanks!

Call me new-fashioned, but this crap should not be legal. I get cars, I get people heating their homes with wood, I get burning coal for electricity, but this is just a middle finger to the environment and a huge waste of energy (approximately 1.8 GWh).

If the locals wish to spend their resources in this way, that's for them to decide, not you. It isn't a waste if it is valued by someone who pays for it.

Rarely are all of the things burnt paid for. A lot of the pallets etc are stolen from local businesses.

I think someone would notice if several thousand pallets were being stolen from his business.

Given the long history of sectarian violence a business may notice but choose not to make a fuss. Especially a Catholic-owned business.

They definitely notice.

https://belfastmedia.com/mystery-surrounds-source-of-thousan...

The red and blue pallets specifically are owned by just two companies. The pine pallets are stolen from local shopping centres etc.

There isn’t any evidence in this article, just hearsay. I think if someone was driving a van out of a yard with dozens of palettes it would be noticed.

And for them being red and blue, I think it is obvious why those colours would be purchased.

17000 pallets are worth much more than £20,000, which apparently covers all the associated cost of the bonfire.

They sure didn't buy all those pallets.

If that’s really the case then that’s extremely regrettable. Again I’d need hard evidence to be convinced, but I’m not going to except theft even for a cultural occasion.

They should be raising the money voluntarily and collecting donations without coercion. Otherwise they aren’t helping their cause.

Another example from a few years back. https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/3000-...

You can believe that an event mostly orchestrated by paramilitary gangs is above board if you wish, but I know first hand that many of these palettes are stolen.

Important context here is that many of these are in areas where businesses are still paying protection money to the paramilitary organisiations organising the bonfire.

It’s a good thing then that they also completely cover the externalities and burn it in an airtight dome. Wait, they don’t? So maybe it does concern me after all.

I'd be interested to hear how this suggestion of yours might scale. I can think of many other things that affect the atmosphere a thousandfold compared to a few bonfires, likely including activities you might enjoy and I might not.

And quite a lot of them are getting regulated or have been regulated for decades, how does government regulation not scale? There are countries, times and places where you can’t light a bonfire anymore. There are things you are not allowed to burn at all. There are things you are not allowed to spill, things you aren’t allowed to transport, things you aren’t allowed to discard without permission. Honest question, what is the thing that affects the atmosphere that much and we can’t regulate it?

> Honest question, what is the thing that affects the atmosphere that much and we can’t regulate it?

CO2 sourced from fossil fuels that have been buried for tens of millions of years all being dragged up in the one century.

As opposed to C02 from the surface vegetation cycle of absorption and release; by say, growing pine trees, making pallets, burning pallets, growing more trees.

While I personally thing we should do much more than we’re currently doing, fossil fuels have been a hot topic for at least the last decade and the push towards renewables and possibly nuclear is either underway or being seriously discussed pretty much everywhere. So that’s clearly thing we’re technically able to regulate, despite the pushback from big oil.

And you’re right that most of the pallets were made of wood grown for the purpose, and burning them is essentially carbon neutral, but the whole industry requires a steady input of fossil fuels for the machines and electricity for the services, which shifts the whole thing firmly into “waste of energy” territory again.

How many people drive their car for leisure? Motorsports? Riding motorcycles for fun? Using high powered GPUs for gaming? That’s all just burning energy for fun. In your words, a middle finger to the environment. Should that all be forbidden?

> How many people drive their car for leisure?

Probably much fewer than in generations past. There is frequent reportage that in the USA, the car is no longer so regarded as a symbol of personal freedom. And in many countries, petrol is expensive and heavily taxed with some effect on discouraging usage.

Definitely not forbidden, just heavily taxed or conducted in a way that doesn’t [disproportionately] harm the environment. If your gaming rig runs off renewables and you ride an electric motorcycle, be my guest.

I mean, I don’t want to be a dick, I don’t care if someone drives a few kilometers more on their way from work because it’s nicer there, after all, there ARE private yachts that burn the same amount of fuel every twenty meters, and I don’t think that a few rally stages or a few laps around Spa is what finally kills the planet, but there’s something about setting 400 tons of wood on fire for “big flamey thing nice” that pisses me off way more than people riding motorcycles. Way more of that middle finger energy.

I agree that the price of fuel should be increased to the point where it covers externalities. This could be treated the same. But you specifically asked for “not legal”.

Please don't bring motorcycles into this. The environmental impact is negligible compared to cars. The problem is not that if their pollution. If there's an issue, rather bring up loud Harleys and so on that contribute to noise in city streets and such.

Until private jets and superyachts are banned, it seems wrong to complain about this.

It’s very wasteful, but I’m assuming it’ll ‘entertain’ a large number of people, at least.

And it’s nothing compared to the waste and environmental damage of warfare, another global problem we still face.

fwiw - wood burning does not contribute to net CO2 increase because wood is part of the closed loop cycle, unlike fossil fuels such as coal or oil. It's not terribly efficient, and seems a bit wasteful, but from an environmental perspective, that wood is net zero.

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