Hacker News Reader

Comment by pclmulqdq | Hacker News Reader

The actual architecture of most of these systems in finance relies heavily on UDP multicast, which is a technology that big tech has basically forgotten because it can be tough to administer at large scale.

Multicast puts the entire load of distributing the data in its natural place: the network. The pub/sub queues that the rest of the world uses are more complicated and a lot worse.

This appears to be the beginning of a "cloud-native" bloomberg that can't lean on multicast.

View on HN

UDP Multicast relies on constantly throwing out the entire state of your system in order to be reliable, whereas with TCP you only need to throw out changes. This is fine in finance because the state is changing constantly anyway so you might as well just continually throw out the multicast traffic.

Message queuing is a more complicated system, but it allows you to push the bulk of your work out to the distributed network instead of concentrating it on the producer.

That is definitely not true about state management - you can build very TCP-like systems on top of UDP (see QUIC), and the final adaptation you need is to figure out how to make that work with multicast (a non-trivial adaptation, but possible). Once you do, you have the foundations of a pub/sub system in the form of a one-to-many (or many-to-many if you are brave enough) network protocol, and now you basically only have to figure out how to do state recovery of new clients and clients who are behind, and that can basically just be a database. The system described in the OP is kind of a combination of a database and load balancer in order to do this over unicast connections.

You have to do this state management with a TCP-based system anyway - the use of TCP doesn't magically come with the full state of past messages.

This is not right in finance at least. Messages updates are typically incremental just like in TCP. The reliability problem is dealt with with careful network stack tuning, core affinity and out of band recovery.

Check out 0MQ (ZeroMQ), Informatica Ultra Messaging (formerly 29 West), and aeron.io They create reliable uni/multicast protocols over UDP, including strategies for NAK storms etc.

Keep in mind Bloomberg works with a few “cloud native “ consumers. In that context it may make more sense.

Well that certainly sent me down a rabbit hole. Seems like UDP Multicast is really IP Multicast. I'd love to play with this

Yes, UDP on top of IP multicast - UDP is a pretty thin layer on top of IP in general, and the IP protocol is deceptively powerful. You just can't run protocols like TCP over IP multicast.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com