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Comment by coldtea | Hacker News Reader

>I happen to prefer dynamic, multicultural societies over static, xenophobic ones.

Can people in other societies have a say about what they want in the matter in their own society, or your also prefer the norms of you and your society imposed upon everybody?

("I like multiculturalism, as long as every country has the same cultural mindset as mine").

>From that I’m sure you can guess my own nationality.

Is it one where foreigners massacred and replaced the native population, took their land, relegated them to specific areas, and even took their children and closed them in camps? I guess those natives were xenophobic too.

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>("I like multiculturalism, as long as every country has the same cultural mindset as mine").

To some degree, this isn't a bad idea. For example, I abhor female genital mulitaliton (FGM) and I don't think it's particularly wrong to say that regardless of it being the "culture" of some people, it shouldn't be done.

If I weren't a moral nihilist, I certainly wouldn't be a moral relativist.

People who generally oppose multiculturalism often assume their ideological opponent is an ardent adherent to cultural relativism, with their definition of cultural relativism being a very uncharitable one: i.e., “no culture is better than another, and it’s not okay to say something another culture does is bad.”

Cultural relativism is more useful in understanding why some people from different cultures behave the way they do, and examining if wither rejection of that behavior is based on a logical, beneficial value, or whether it’s based on the natural impulse to reject something foreign. Mistaken beliefs prevent cultural progress. Beliefs should be open to challenge.

>Can people in other societies have a say about what they want in the matter in their own society, or your also prefer the norms of you and your society imposed upon everybody?

Of course people in other societies should have a say in what they want in the matter of their own society. I just prefer they come to the same conclusion mine has, since it’s the superior one in many respects. (Not all aspects, of course — there is no “perfect culture” or “perfect system”; all of them have downsides in some aspect)

>From that I’m sure you can guess my own nationality. Is it one where foreigners massacred and replaced the native population, took their land, relegated them to specific areas, and even took their children and closed them in camps? I guess those natives were xenophobic too.

The genocide of the peoples indigenous to North America is a black mark in the history of the United States, as is slavery. Neither has been adequately remedied, and I’m unsure it ever will be. The US has a lot of work to do on both of these fronts.

Superior is very relative. I'm sure the Japanese are quite happy with their extremely low crime rates and overall safe society. But yes, there are tradeoffs.

Absolutely. Superior is a term that only makes sense in the context of an individual’s or group’s values, and how strongly those values are held in relation to the downsides of the individual culture in that culture’s context. Added to that, some of the “downsides” from the perspective of one group’s values might be “upsides” to another! I happen to value “safety” in absolute terms (as demonstrated by Japan) less than individual freedom. That is, I prefer to live in a society with more “rough edges” because I see the trade-off (more room for new ideas and more latitude for people who don’t fit in) as being worth it.

Now, you could totally question the link between these two. And you’d be right to! There’s no absolute link between “restrictive personal expression” and “low crime and high safety.” Japan, for one, has pretty punitive laws, including the death penalty. That probably plays a role. It’s all super complex, which is what makes it interesting… and why sharing ideas is critical to improving conditions for individuals, especially marginalized ones.

>since it’s the superior one in many respects.

If I compare the US (assuming it's your country) and Japan, in anything from crime and safety, to cleanliness, community cohesion, politiness, cuisine, nature, and art, I found it deeply inferior, when contrasting results.

Doesn’t Japan have rampant sexual assault to the point where their public transport needs women-only trains due to the prevalence of non-police-investigated public molestation of young girls? Additionally doesn’t japans criminal system notoriously doesn’t investigate heinous sex crimes and rapes, leading to artificially low crime rates (I.e. the police don’t take on cases unless they know they can solve them, so crime is underreported).

How long have you lived there?

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