Apple’s strict on App Store rules but gives WeChat a free pass (2020)
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reclaimthenet.org
[1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/07/googles-web-integrit...
[2] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/ready-for-your-e...
[3] (countless more examples, especially recently...)
The protest were a massive mixture of different ideologies, but the dominant ones were democratic politics, and communist economics, opposing the trend towards oligarchic/autocratic rule and liberalized economy.
Can't put my finger on it exactly however...
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2012-mapping-chinas-red-n...
Yes? That number is decreasing, is the point.
> What aristocracy?
The owners of those public-invested private companies. The state didn't decide to buy a majority stake in company A over company B because company A was meritocratically superior; the state had a personal connection to the ownership of company A.
This is factually incorrect, or perhaps more generously: out of date. SOE market capitalization as a percentage of the total has been increasing for about two years now, and the CPC has stated their intention that SOEs will play a bigger role in the economy going forward.
> The owners of those public-invested private companies. The state didn't decide to buy a majority stake in company A over company B because company A was meritocratically superior; the state had a personal connection to the ownership of company A.
[Citation needed]
The key thing to notice is that, in realpolitik terms, an "oligarch" is only aristocracy — rather than haute bourgeoisie — if they have a collegial relationship with the state. I.e. if their interests inherently align with the state's interests (or they can personally negotiate such alignment) such that that they have no reason to act against the state.
But if you have enough oligarchs who don't have such relationships with the state — disenfranchised oligarchs — then they will inevitably plot to manipulate the petite bourgeoisie and proletariat together into organizing a revolt; and will then — critically — sit back and collectively withhold their support from the state for implementing any suppression of said revolt.
(Look at what's happening in Russia right now. You think they'd have such shitty military equipment if the oligarch owners of their defense contractors believed in Putin and wanted him to stay in power?)
Every successful "populist" revolt/revolution in political history, has had an underlying set of disenfranchised oligarchs, who could have aided in the suppression of the revolt, but instead chose to stand by (or "work to rule") and let it happen, because the revolution would inevitably put them in a better, more powerful position.
Why does every politically-stable country — whether democracy, constitutional monarchy, etc. — have a senate? Because a senate is a body made up of (representatives of) oligarchs whose interests don't inherently align with the state, where the job of everyone in the room is to negotiate a group equilibrium between state interests and industrial interests that both the state and the oligarchs can be happy-enough with that the oligarchs will stop undermining state power.
China has a legislature (the NPC), but insofar as it is only a rubber-stamp — it cannot control the Party – seats there are worthless as an "enfranchisement" for oligarchs. They want a real hand in power.
China, obviously, makes friends with oligarchs whenever it can. But certain oligarchs' power bases are just inherently misaligned with Chinese state interests — in a way that a real senate body would solve, but which cannot otherwise be resolved peacefully.
For example: why did China push both Jack Ma out of ownership of Alibaba Group, and Colin Huang out of his chairman position of Pinduoduo, at around the same time? Well, both of these companies now own petit borgeoisie wealth-creation engines — AliExpress and Temu. But Temu didn't exist yet when Huang was ousted. And AliExpress (via Alibaba Group) is majority foreign-owned, while PDD is a domestic private company (and thereby likely implicitly highly state-invested.)
My interpretation of those facts: the state wanted to replace AliExpress — a company proven to both support foreign interference and the empowerment of local petit-bourgeoisie interests (that could eventually lead to destabilization of power) — with another company the state could control indefinitely: one that seemingly serves the same market function, but with tricks (profit-margin caps, distributor-set sale prices) that mean that Temu is not an engine of wealth-creation for the middle class in practice. (It tricks you into thinking that it is, and continues that illusion for the first few months, "going easy" on new sellers to get them to quit other channels, before coming down on you.)
Ma wouldn't stand for just giving up on the forward momentum of an entire business venture, so he was ousted. Huang wasn't interested in his B2B agrobusiness company being pivoted to focus on replacing AliExpress — so he was ousted too. China's replacement board seats of Alibaba acted to cut off new investment into AliExpress; while China's replacement board seats of PDD Holdings acted to get the company going toward building Temu.
Yes, you could describe this as 'making sure systemically there will never be a "bourgeoisie" united strong enough in china'. But you can also describe it as disenfranchising some very rich people. Dumb move, tbh.
Or consider: every blockchain/cryptocurrency company in China. Again often foreign-funded, again usually highly successful — but at something that China just can't square with (enabling capital flight out of China, minimizing the state's economic hold over other oligarchs.) In a functioning/long-term-stable China, the Chinese cryptocurrency industry would form an industry body with a lobby, get that lobby represented in the senate, and then that lobby's interests would get carefully negotiated against state interests. In the China we have, these companies are just quashed... despite each shutdown generating new disenfranchised oligarchs by the dozens.
If you're hinting at authoritarianism, Trump has been repudiated by most, and the Republican party is in shambles right now (which is how such a weak Democrat was able to win). I don't really see the doomer point of view.
No one actually thinks that, it's just the line they use to justify themselves to the public. Like how Saudi Arabia has been promising amazing "reforms" for the better part of a decade.
We had just done it to Russia successfully (short-term). Why not China?
There's a reason both the USSR and China started doing reforms in the 80s: neither system was working well, leading to stagnation at best and outright absurdities and poverty at worst. In both cases, the economic reforms mostly worked out well.
There are a bunch of differences between Russia and China: China never seriously attempted to introduce democracy and has had a fairly stable political system since the late 70s, whereas in Russia the entire communist political system collapsed and was replaced (which is always tricky business). China also never experienced a breakup similar to the breakup of the USSR, didn't have "let's sell off all state properties to my friends for peanuts" kind of corruption, had quite a different make-up (before the reforms most of China was rural and profoundly poor), and probably a few other differences.
What isn't going to happen is the leadership suddenly deciding they love democracy and giving up power.
Usually that's the biggest problem worldwide, the old hold on to old ways to their deaths and prevent any kind of change. And this is a newer phenomena in human history because modern medicine has extended lifespans far beyond the days of old.
There are many flavors of liberalism and yes 2023 China is more liberal than 1980 China.
If you could explain 2023 China to Deng Xiaoping in 1980 he'd think China would be a degenerate state.
The fethism with political liberalism above all needs to stop
I genuinely have to laugh when people tend to say things like "I wish China was as liberal as it was back under Deng", people have concocted some serious alt-history if they think China today isn't more liberal than it was decades ago
Deng was only being blatantly honest.
How many people died due do US involvement to "restore order"? [1]
I know from experience what happened to Greece and Argentina and I wouldn't call it an accomplishment nor something that made the World a better place.
There are no reasons to consider "being liberal" a goal, it's just one of the options, doesn't mean it's the best or the only one.
Of course the US cannot afford to not be hyper-liberal (meaning in reality hyper-capitalistic-run-by-greedy-corporations) because it would kill their economy, even though it could benefit a large squat of the population that, for one reason or another, is being considered a burden for the society by the "liberals" whose only solution is "throw money at the problem and hide it under the carpet".
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...
Apple can’t remove WeChat because most consumers would rather change device hardware than lose access to WeChat.
I'd enjoy listening to the story here, spacebanana.
Adobe’s motivation was largely revenge against Apple for opening up printing standards. Previously Adobe had a de facto monopoly license on these.
Steve Jobs was extremely pissed off by seeing Apple get hurt for making a pro consumer decision that was good for the wider industry, and held the grudge for a long time. Even though he wasn’t CEO for much of this period.
This article has more detail if you’re interested [1]
[1] https://www.alphr.com/blogs/2010/05/05/apple-adobe-history/
Bumpgate affected AMD products too, this was the era of baking your 7850 to try and reflow the solder bumps, and apple was just trying to get the supplier to pay for the problems with the RoHS solders that apple specified in the product designs. Apple has always been a clientzilla that ruthlessly leans on its partners and suppliers (most recently Goldman Sachs is feeling the pain from the Apple Card) and believes that it’s a privilege to hold their business. And nvidia isn’t a company that got rich by bending over for that kind of treatment either (see also their relation with Microsoft).
Apple really wanted to terminate their relationship with nvidia anyway and this was just them demanding a big check on the way out the door. Nothing like making your ex pay for the cost of you moving out during the breakup.
When Apple acquired NeXT, the original plan was for the NeXT API (now called Cocoa) to become the only way to build apps on the new Mac OS. But Adobe made it clear they were not going to port everything to Objective-C. In response Apple came up with Carbon, which was a port of essential plain-C APIs from Classic Mac OS to the new environment.
Apple retaliated pretty hard in 2007-2010 by first knifing 64-bit Carbon when it had already shipped in Leopard betas, and later strangling Flash.
E.g. if someone comes to our organization and ask to rewrite half of what we do in their new language, we won't move. Should that someone hold a grudge against us?
I loathe the idea of giving Microsoft credit for anything, but one thing they got right was their focus on backward compatibility. Certainly that has frayed at times here and there, but MS generally doesn't ask their developers to completely rewrite their applications to use a new application framework.
Considering how Microsoft has failed to move past Windows while Apple uses the same OS more or less for watches, phones, tablets, monitors, set top boxes, etc without having to support legacy crap.
That's pretty easy when you have no qualms whatsoever about breaking support for software which is older than 2-3 years and offer very limited support for third party software on all of your platforms except one.
> The only device running a variant of iOS that doesn’t have third party software are the displays.
That seems to be the case, yes.
I imagine some kind of deal along the lines of “no WeChat no iPhone in China” was done.
[0] https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/30/21348108/apple-amazon-pri...
[1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/30/18203551/apple-facebook-b...
[2] https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/23/15399438/apple-uber-app-s...
This seems like an understatement.
> Since these are “apps within an app”, many of these mini-programs are flouting the App Store rules since they were not downloaded from the App Store.
I mean Drafts has the ability to download actions (not sure if that is the right term) which are JS that run inside the app. I think this is fine and doesn't skirt any rules, I don't see why WeChat is all that different.
All that said, of course Apple is going to make exceptions for WeChat the same way it makes various concessions to other countries.
I'm not familiar with that particular app but if that happens it's not fine and it seems to get a pass from Apple. The apps are not allowed to download executable code. You have to bundle it all in the app.
There is a special entitlement to allow some Apple apps and frameworks to do this — Apple’s JavaScriptCore can do JIT, which requires executing data pages. Similarly, Swift Playgrounds can compile to native code and execute that code
So, for example, you could ship a C compiler on iOS and it would compile perfectly valid binaries, but you would never be able to execute those binaries natively without code-signing them and deploying them in an Apple sanctioned way, which you cannot do on-device (except with the above mentioned exceptions)
Only for Safari or if you use a WKWebView, otherwise if you use JavascriptCore yourself on iOS, JIT is disabled and quite slow. On macOS it’s enabled.
Implementation is very much part of the rules. Apps cannot download and execute external code… unless it’s JavaScript in a browser.
Nothing in the article suggests that WeChat apps are not plain websites, so it seems that they don’t know the rules nor the alleged rule breaker’s technical side.
I wouldn’t exclude that WeChat really does get a pass from Apple, but the article does not clarify this important point.
> WeChat is more akin to a web browser than having multiple "apps" inside it
>> Apple bans alternative web browsers too... so..
If they use a different browser engine they are currently banned but you can wrap Safari/webkit like every browser app on iOS does and provide different chrome/features. WeChat isn't embedding a different rendering engine, just using webkit.
We were told to we could fetch news story data from an api, and get back json/xml/etc, but not JS and CSS files.
though it's not really clear to me what it means to change your app's functionality in a way that would not be appropriate for an App Store product
I totally believe they rejected your app though, App Store review is pretty bad. I mean at least they are _way_ faster now but it's reviewer roulette for sure. I've been dinged for things that aren't even in the App Store dev agreement, they were in some other document. Even worse the reviewer told me I needed to change my wording when requesting a permission, the problem? She wanted me to change text I don't control in the permissions dialog. I explained that I only had control over the single string in quotes but she told me I was wrong (I got through on the next review). The inconsistency in the review process is maddening and so much of it is reading the tea leaves of what they actually want and what is allowed. I mean, we all know it's against the rules to send advertising/marketing push notifications right? Right? That _never_ happens in the App Store... Make whatever rules you want but dear god please enforce them consistently and change/remove a rule if you've decided to not enforce it.
But yeah it also probably was partly due to reviewer roulette. I've experienced the same on other apps, things that have been in the app for a year can suddenly get it rejected without a corresponding rules change from Apple. Just different interpretations of our code by a new reviewer.
In this case we decided to just remove that feature and re-publish.
Been there. The best is when I have an app that has actually been released on multiple other accounts (white label app) and then a reviewer wants to say it's all wrong and reject it. I the worst thing that's happened to me is when they dinged me for a soft permission prompt (asking the user before throwing the one-time-only system dialog), I removed it since I needed to get the update out (it wasn't related to this at all of course), then they started nit-picking and not only were they wrong in a lot of the cases but they were making me do like 1-2 word changes to permission prompts to make them more specific. I had no clue how many new things they'd come up with for each submission, we went back and forth a few times before it finally got through, I just bumped the build number and resubmitted.
What I understand is that a mini program needs to be "packaged" and shipped to WeChat as a bundle. The size of the bundle is relatively small. (~10mb ?)
Of course you can load some content from outside, not everything is within those 10mb, but I think it's still relatively limited. Calling it apps within apps is a stretch.
In the end, it was down to whether it _looked like_ your app was downloading executable code more than whether it actually did. Reviewers are non-technical, and when the policy is technical they often make an inference that may be incorrect — however they will not budge on that without consulting actual engineers further up the chain, which can take weeks
They have become a lot more relaxed about this policy in the last five years or so (ever since Shortcuts)
For e.g. a popular one is a mini-app for DiDi cabs. It'll allow you to book a nearby cab & place a call/text using the WeChat integration. It is more of utility to WeChat/Weixin rather than an appstore within their app. Agreed it is somewhat borderline in definition, but the way I see it - the utilities and apps are sandboxed within WeChat ecosystem.
And if we assume on average 10 updates to each app then we have ~20m approvals/rejections.
Given that the process involves real people it is only normal for there to be many inconsistencies and double standards at this scale. Especially when the rules have evolved over the last 15 years and you have app developers who like to push the limits of what's allowed.
i.e. Wechat users would rather switch to Android than lose the app.
I guess the lesson is that exceptions will be made if you can grow an app literally a million fold in a few years and become a vital part of your user's day-to-day lives.
Reposting the exact same thought again seems a bit odd.
I was just agreeing with your agreement (:
Twitter skews older, requires desktop opt-in for NSFW content, and (before Musk) had decent content reporting functions.
1. Apple executives like Phil Schiller used Twitter for years.
2. Apple bought advertising on Twitter.
3. https://sreegs.tumblr.com/post/671649355334336512/alright-le...
The latter two are "big in ___" apps that are hardly known anywhere else, namely SA, Japan, and China, to which anything HQ in California do will only cause unpredictable and unobservable, likely negative financial impacts. I'm from "Asia" but all I know about WeChat is about as much as that it's a brand with a logo, that's it.
Apple et al allows maximum leniency, budget and local decisions for those local apps because of that. "No one's using it anyway", only cash is coming in, so whatever happens there won't matter anyway, as long as the gig won't stop. Hell, if they need datacenter for all data to stay in China, so be it, if they need extra rapid payments to keep Shinjuku going, so be it.
Tumblr is different; they have US users and negative impacts can be readily measured. So they - its owner Yahoo! US at the time of its death - were not scared to do whatever.
Do people like the wechat experience because you have one login and don't have to go through an onboarding process in every mini-app?
Why are you downloading apps from the App Store instead of running separate OSes? This is the same concept, just one level down.
Really, WeChat is just a browser with extra APIs and a website catalog.
> Do people like the wechat experience because you have one login and don't have to go through an onboarding process in every mini-app?
I’m not fully familiar with its history, but from what I understand Tencent added more and more “apps” to their chat app and eventually let third parties into it. This is exactly what Facebook did in 2010: we also had third party “apps” on Facebook. They were also just iframed websites with extra APIs.
It's crazy how long ago this feels. FarmVille legitimately took over the country for a bit.
The web browser is an everything app on your desktop.
As Marc Andreessen said at the time:
> Netscape will soon reduce Windows to a poorly debugged set of device drivers.
>> Netscape will soon reduce Windows to a poorly debugged set of device drivers.
It's funny how history proved him so wrong and so right at the same time.
I mean, there are some other choices but they also answer to the party. It's more for show.
They don't push it on the user side but on the vendor side.
people elsewere depend on facebook just as much as people in china depend on wechat. not more and not less. alternatives do exist for the determined. you just have to accept that you can't easily stay in contact with everyone. the same tradeof you have to make if you don't use facebook.
the miniapp that we used the most was a voting tool. you could see who in the group had voted for what and it was very useful to have it all integrated, as opposed to an external website where none of the voters were verified to be the same people from the group.
sending money is also a no brainer once you can trust that the person you are sending money to is really the same one. and external payment system means that you would have to verify that the person you are sending money to is the same person you were talking to on wechat. that's just extra steps. if happens of course otherwise alipay would not exist, but part of that is because alibaba has other features (like the market) that people want to use, and they do not support wechat pay. i wuld suspect that if they had supported wechat pay, then alipay would not have been able to gain any significant market share at all.
For Chinese people, you could say that WeChat serves as an OS with a greater coverage. It could even be said that WeChat represents half of China's mobile Internet.
Only after acquiring a substantial user base did WeChat launch its "Mini Programs". This feature has further boosted the usage of WeChat. For instance, during the COVID-19 pandemic, certain types of apps forced people in remote areas to start using WeChat. However, the fundamental reason is that the usage rate of WeChat was already high.
This explains why, outside of China, WeChat's "Mini Programs" aren't particularly striking: in those regions, there simply aren't enough WeChat users.
Of course, Sony made exceptions to this policy for major publishers and their big-ticket franchises like Capcom with Street Fighter...
1. WeChat is not the only app that comes with "mini program", Alipay for a big example. 2. WeChat is not the only app that delivers news and media information and consumes a huge amount of users's time, DouYin for a big example.
Why mention and only mention political events when you are talking about an iOS app and Apple store censorship ?
Or you're just merely talking about politics of your value.
Interesting link in that last paragraph: https://reclaimthenet.org/apple-rejects-freedom-of-expressio...
Hmm.
Anything new since?
I love that your previous comment was that "people use twitter because of free speech", and now I can't even look at it without logging in. Proof that on the internet anyone can sound confident.
In China your health status (green/yellow/red) was automatically calculated based on what neighborhoods of the city you had been in, what other people you passed by in the street or on public transportation, etc. So, it could change in an instant, and that is why it was shown from phone apps that constantly updated. It wasn’t a fixed thing like vaccination status, where a printed form would make sense.
to get your digital travel status there was an app you could download (actually each province hat their own app) and you registered on that with your phone number and passport details (or chinese ID). no wechat or alipay required.
if you didn't have a working phone then you could log in to that app on any other phone at see your status there. in theory it was possible to travel without a phone and not have the fact that you travelled reflect in the app, but in practice it was not worth the trouble.
Also look at Facebook. You can talk with friends. Send money. Interact with businesses. Play games. Date. Sell and buy stuff. And many more.
But they don’t have state supported monopoly position, so it’s not an everything app.