Comment by manmal | Hacker News Reader

Comment by manmal | Hacker News Reader

A good friend of mine is the very opposite of a successful person, by almost every definition - she has been poor almost all her life (way below our country's poverty level), obese, chronically overworked, always stressed out, and often depressed. You'd expect that she is of the so-called lower class, but no - she's VERY intelligent and only hasn't finished her master thesis yet because she "has so much other stuff to do".

Swombat casually mentioned that success might be a lifelong habit - in her case it seems that UNsuccess can also be a habit. Whenever a decision comes along, she decides for what's good for others. I recently heard she might even put off her baby plans for one year just because her pupils asked her to stay with them until school leaving exam. She also hates money, and starts inviting people for dinner (who earn a lot more than her) whenever she got some € to spare. Every week she's having a fever because she sleeps only 2-3 hours a day so she can spend more time with working for her students (from whom she can't take much money, because they are, well, students).

I really like her - almost everybody does. Such sacrificing personalities are well thought-of in our society. Many people admire her for her ability to work 15h a day, while earning almost nothing. But it's a life I would never want to lead.

Recently, her life has finally improved, and she has been forced to earn more so her husband is allowed to move to Austria. Still, she now has 3-4 jobs at a time, hustling around so she earns < half of what I make by working 20-30h per week.

I relate to her, and I'm gradually getting over it - but my mindset since I was a child was the only currency that I had an endless supply of was suffering. If I didn't have the money to do something for someone, or to do good in the world, I could spend convenience, time to sleep, comfort, health, or opportunities. I still feel that way, because it's true, but I also feel like I am worth as much as anyone else, and that good done for the selfish is usually at best neutral but probably bad, so that moderates my self-sacrifice. It allows me to narrow my focus to people and ideas that are net goods, and not to hurt myself to help people into a better situation than I am currently in.

A nice effect is that I end up maintaining the resources to help people who are worth helping without getting to the point where I'm spending suffering. It's really an accounting problem. If I suffer to death helping selfish people, think about all of the good people that I'm going to miss out on helping. I may end up sacrificing myself and still having a bad net effect in the world.

It sounds like she's enjoying life, regardless of her poor situation. She's aware of her decisions; they're a conscious choice. That's respectable.

She probably isn't enjoying life at all. I've known people like this and they are usually very unhappy with their situation, but feel powerless to change their habits. Or, more likely, they gain satisfaction from the attention due to all the "self-sacrifice".

My relative is just like the person described here. Goes out of her way to please everyone, sacrifices greatly, terrible financials. All because she loves the attention that is bestowed upon her. However, she is utterly miserable with her life in general and is constantly bitter about her circumstances...which she eases away by going out to dinner with some friends or buying an expensive gadget.

Yes, people like that don't see how they are the master of their own life. It's a difficult way to go, and I'm glad I don't have to learn this the hard way.

They are aware that it's difficult. They're also aware that they continue to choose that lifestyle. This is just as valid of a life choice as any other.

It's more than a little arrogant to say that she's not the master of her own life just because she works to the detriment of her health. Yes, by defintion, she needs money to survive; nonetheless, she goes out and gets that money when it's needed. That is worthy of respect.

You're saying she's somehow a bad human. In reality it's the greed for money which makes us bad humans.

I would never call her a bad human, and I mentioned that I like her - she's a good friend, and she won't do harm to anyone (except herself). She's just no good human to herself.

She is clearly not the master of her life if she decides to put off pregnancy so some pupils don't feel disappointed. She wants at least 3 children (very badly!) and she's already over 30 years old - so, she has to hurry up anyway. At least that's not mastery according to my definition.

I know these types of people (I used to be one to a lesser degree) and I don't think it's fair to say that she knows what she's doing. As a highly intelligent person, if this is pointed out to her she'll no doubt rationalise it all somehow, but that doesn't mean it's a conscious choice.

I've lived with an anti-money mindset for most of my life (it's changing, slowly), and it wasn't a conscious choice. I never sat down and thought "ok, I don't want money, so I'm going to steer away from opportunities to make money, spend money that arrives to me as quickly as possible, and basically generally push it away". Once it was pointed out to me repeatedly that I did this, I started working on changing this subconscious choice. It's still an ongoing process, and far from over.

It takes some pretty strong-headed, tireless friends to keep pointing out to you that you're being stupid and it's hurting your life. It takes a number of obvious, unignorable examples of people less talented than you doing much better.

Without those constant nudges over a period of years, most people will rationalise things just as you do, about themselves or about others. I wish on this woman that her friends will figure out how to get it through to her that she could have a much better life, and that her own subconscious choices and thought patterns are holding her back, rather than any external circumstances.

For example, one such belief is the idea that money is evil, the cause of problems. That's a load of crap. Money is a token of value that can be exchanged for whatever the hell you want. It's a resource that can be used to do great good or great evil - but that entirely depends on the person doing things. Money is a lever that you can use to multiply your impact on the world - but as long as you keep pushing money away from you, you don't get to use that lever effectively. If you understand this idea, that goes a long way towards starting to resolve manmal's friend's money issues...

I said greed for money makes us bad humans. Not money.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with "not wanting to impact the world", and it's a shame that so many are implying that it is. It's "enjoying life", plain and simple.

I don't care about money; I let it run out a few months ago. Didn't phase me. I simply got a job when I needed to, and now I have $11k saved up. I'm very lucky to be a programmer. But more than that, I'm lucky to be able to enjoy life by studying as much science as I want to. Does that make me a bad person? By your implication, it does, because I don't care about money, and spend it freely.

On a different note... It sounds like you've been through a struggle, and came out stronger. I just wanted to say congratulations. I respect that a lot.

Of course it doesn't make you a bad person - and it sounds like your choice is somewhat more deliberate. That said, I'd point out that it looks like you're plenty capable of making a lot more money whenever you want to, and if you set your mind on buying a house you'd come up with the cash for it within a couple of years.

That's a world away from the situation described in previous posts. It sounds like you have your priorities straight, which is commendable, rather than being at the mercy of a self-sacrificing mindset...

On a different note... It sounds like you've been through a struggle, and came out stronger. I just wanted to say congratulations. I respect that a lot.

Thanks. Struggle still ongoing. :-)

Yes, that's the strange thing about her situation. She's a very conscious person, and chooses to hate money and hurting other people's expectations - even if she harms herself by that.

It's understandable. She gets fulfillment out of seeing people smile.

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