Don't Learn Value from Society | Hacker News Reader

Don't Learn Value from Society

palladiummag.com

I'm skeptical of this style of writing. If I'd have the power/were a mod... I would remove it even if it doesn't break any rules.

Allegedly, all of the author's friends are dead, and this is a widespread problem. This happenes everywhere, society is at fault. - What we hear is baseless (there are no links provided). It's pretty far from my experience as a human (however, I am not US based).

The tone of the text is very low on specifics, and it's spoken at a 3rd person always talking about others, about how society behaves, about what others do and how others feel. - This style is usually a projection of someone's thoughts. In my experience I've had lots to learn by talking about my own values and how they developed over time. Also hearing others talk about their own experience directly proved valuable. All I'm seeing in this text is "I judge X, I judge Y". That scares me.

These are 2 of the red flags I have to detect problematic philosophical wiring. Is it specific? Is it personal/direct experience? Negative answers suggest I should avoid this piece.

[EDIT] I did not get to the end of the piece and thus I do not argue about content here. Red flags triggered for me in 5-6 distinct paragraphs. Enough for me to decide I should avoid the rest (and that I should write this comment).

Thank you, I was composing a reply along these lines as well. The essay is pseudo-erudite, using a lot of words to convey an impression of depth but in actuality saying very little, and repeatedly. I will also add that the Biblical exegesis at the end is interesting only as a personal interpretation: ahistorical and effectively creating its own mythical version. The piece might be acceptable as a work of fiction but it's not philosophy.

I'm skeptical about the discussion of Abraham. Appeal to Abraham is appeal to authority.

I have no opinion on Abraham. Not in general, just for this text.

Why?

Because the red flags I discuss happen early. Way before Abraham is mentioned. What I describe is a tool I use to decide whether the author is projecting a reality or observing/reporting on it.

I stopped reading without encountering any mention of Abraham. However I hope the tools I mention are still of value. I say this because it seems they helped me abandon an article that could have gotten me to Abraham...

For those unaware: Palladium is a far-right magazine bankrolled by Peter Thiel. This is written by one of its two co-founders, the one who hasn’t yet been publicly outed as a white nationalist[1].

[1]: https://splinternews.com/leaked-emails-show-how-white-nation...

That explains a lot! The article was pretty insightful up until the point where it mentioned Abraham. Far right figures can be very incisive about some of the issues facing modern society, the problem is that their solution is very often to revert to traditional norms.

>the problem is that their solution is very often to revert to traditional norms.

Perhaps so, but TFA rejects that solution, stressing the importance of acquiring one's own values through experience. Traditional wisdom can be helpful in a "prior work" sense, but is no substitute for trying things and learning from them.

I see what you're saying but I disagree on two counts.

Firstly, the author advocates not just personal experience but also following the examples of "great singular men of history". This is the classic traditionalist right-wing narrative whereby we need super-hero saviours past and present to show us plebs the way.

Secondly, the author doesn't just say to find your own values, but explicitly lauds a specific set of values:

> multiplication of biological kin, sovereign control of living space, eternal fame, rewards to friends and punishments to enemies, a universal benevolent impact, and harmony with the plans and laws of God and nature

These are traditionalist right-wing norms. Arguably they are pretty damaging in the modern world.

I grew up in fairly similar circumstances to the author, and only one of my childhood friends has died, from a motorcycle accident. I think that the author's experience is pretty uncommon.

Another excellent example on this front is Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson, by any sort of fundamental interpretation of religion, would have been a heretic, or worse, in a time when religion was still a fundamental component of society. He espoused Christianity, but rejected the virgin birth, resurrection, and various other miracles in the Bible. He actually even composed his own 'bible' by [literally] cutting and pasting sections of the bible (across multiple languages no less) into a new book - the 'Jefferson Bible.' [1] And he made no secret of his views. Discovering this increased my respect for him by orders of magnitude.

If we all abided values only because those values made sense to us, then I think the world would not only be a much more interesting place, but also probably a much better one. It's so weird to see so many people simply claim to believe things that they probably don't, simply because it's socially expected or convenient to claim to believe them. We're only here for ~80 years, spending this time deceiving others, or even worse - yourself, just doesn't make any sense.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

There's new hope for addicts https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2023/05/425246/psychedelic-inspire...

I don't follow how society's not a reliable source of values, which I agree in principle, but Abraham (that we only know of thanks to spotty written records post-fact) is.

> Three millennia ago, man once again struggled to find reality between the proliferation of false idols. Every city in Mesopotamia, then the richest and most developed center of civilization, had its own cults and gods. For a camp of nomadic herdsmen like Terah and his son Abram, it all looked very suspicious.

This seems to be the main thrust. Abraham : Mesopotamia :: Trad values : Modern society's values. A flimsy argument that comes from an extremely shallow understanding of what little we know of ancient history.

Pretty scary. Abraham's values are the hard right, about some people being anointed by God while others are not. Hey which group would you like to be part of? Well sorry you can't choose. God helps Abraham, not his enemies.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/was-abraham-a-murderer

I had pizza with the author once.

This makes sense:

>Well-grounded values, which is to say values that actually serve and accelerate life rather than deplete it, come from only one source: hard engagement with reality, where you can form an experience-building feedback loop of trial, error, and vitality.

and this:

>Our most important low-hanging fruit is to recognize the problem: most of the values we learn from the institutions around us are fake and exploitative. They do not represent our real interests.

And this:

>In contrast to these false values, what we can do is recognize and orient ourselves more rigorously to Abraham’s hard natural values. Are you winning at a biological level? Are you getting more territory at a more sovereign level of control? Are you living rigorously in contact with natural law? Are you working on something that will achieve eternal fame? Are your enemies being cursed and your friends blessed? Does your winning at these things serve any great and higher plan of blessing for all creation and all peoples?

>These are not the root of all value. But absent some kind of reliable revelation as to the deeper wishes of the higher powers, as Abraham had when he almost sacrificed Isaac, anything that doesn’t credibly offer you help towards these values is not your friend.

That last part (a bit uncomfortably!) reminds me of the more cult-y parts of the startup ecosystem.

> some kind of reliable revelation as to the deeper wishes of the higher powers, as Abraham had

So God talked to Abraham? God exists?

Yeah man

If you believe the account in Genesis, yes on both fronts.

And if you don't, well, then you have no known content for the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac. For that matter, you have no known content for anything else in Abraham's life.

Choosing to believe that Abraham existed but God doesn't and didn't is... not supportable by the only text we have.

You are basically saying: "If you believe the answer then that is the case."

That answer can be given to ANY question and it is as true there as in your case. In other words it is a tautology. It provides no new information.

And this upper middle class is some sort of paragon of sobriety? Half of Americans are on psycho drugs.

Look at Peterson, he is very intelligent and educated, yet in real life he was drug addict, who almost died from overdose.

Source?

https://youtu.be/ACdh-yzENXM

Look at the anti-vax Kennedy guy. He is said to have been a drug-addict too right? And now he gets his satisfaction by getting people to believe the craziest conspiracy theories without any evidence.

I think there is something about hard drugs which actually damage a person's psyche, something like not growing up when you can always escape to drugs. And when you do it means you are not asking relevant questions about the life and society. You are asking the question where can I get more dope. You are not thinking about values that would help the society at large. And later if you can kick the habit your experience somehow convinces you that you know the truth and must redeem yourself by preaching it to others. You feel the need to redeem yourself. But problem is hard drugs seem to take away all empathy towards others which you then never learn.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com