Hacker News Reader

Comment by civilitty | Hacker News Reader

> Oppenheimer was dragged through the mud during the red scare and his name is still tarnished because of that. It is ironic and a little sad that he was awarded the Fermi medal once his name was finally cleared because Fermi worked for him during the Manhattan Project.

It's ironic to me that this is the first time I'm hearing that he was caught up in the red scare. I mean I'm no historian but apparently didn't tarnish his name all that much! :-)

View on HN

Generally speaking, I don't believe anybody's name was permanently tarnished by the red scare, because it turned out to be such an utter farce of a witch hunt.

But, at the time, it of course did derail careers and destroy lives.

I'm glad communists are in the good books now

Marvel and Lucas Films need to justify their acquisition cost.

The red scare ruined countless families' lives. It was an absolute atrocity and continues to undermine the interests of working Americans to this day.

It is the reason union busting is "ok" and get such a bad rap.

Joseph McCarthy's name is thoroughly tarnished.

Completely disgraced is too good for him.

And it remains a stain on Elia Kazan's reputation.

Yes, but people accused of being Russian spies now are obviously spies. No evidence needed.

Some people caught up in the Red Scare were guilty. The true positive rate was much smaller than it should have been, but it wasn't zero.

Guilty of being socialists?

No, spies for the Soviets.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Hall

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Koval

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Gold

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Fuchs

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Glasser

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dexter_White

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Gregory_Silvermaster

There were many, many people in the US who betrayed their country to the Soviets because they believed in Communism.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_espionage_in_the_Unit...

Went through your list. I didn’t get the sense of deep belief in communism nor antiamericanism. There seemed to be other incentives. Is there a good example?

Wikipedia isn't the right source for "the sense of deep belief", it's far too dry and factual for that.

The Rosenbergs were known as believers in Communism.

Not OP, but I would recommend on this subject a podcast I've talked about in a previous comment [1], about the life or Hoover and the red scare in light of declassified knowledge of soviet spies in the US.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36257604

I don't think you studied either Klaus Fuchs or the Rosenbergs in much detail then. Whatever the merits of their actions or the cases against them, they were certainly dedicated Communists who did their best for a cause they believed in fervently.

I should have been clear — those were the 3

Even more they believed that the fascists had to be tamed. First the German fascists, but then the root of it all, the US fascists with their Hitler support and their genocidal anti-socialist world-domination program, bringing fascism to the whole world. I wouldn't call that betrayal, you could rather argue that the US fascists betrayed the oldest democracy.

Even Oppenheimer, who was a stance Anti-Stalinist and the liberal under the fascist security clique, had the very same view and motivation. Just from the far right.

https://www.osti.gov/opennet/manhattan-project-history/Event... names many more.

Afaict none of those spies were caught during the first or second Red Scare

Does the China Initiative count as a Red scare? It was recent. Didn't round up any spies either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Initiative

Also worth noting the impact/risk of leaking nuclear secrets would mean that if you thought there was a 1% chance someone was a spy you can’t ignore that.

That's a simplistic outlook. Oppenheimer was a celebrated leader of the team that invented the bomb that ended the war... and then, very publicly, had his security clearance revoked and was basically dragged through the mud by the government that benefitted from his work and elevated him over others.

I would more equate it with someone being very publicly arrested for a horrible crime, only for the verdict to result in "not guilty" or the case dropped before going to court. You know, like OJ or MJ.

Political Officer: “And the seventh angel poured his bowl into the air, and a voice cried out from heaven, saying: "It is done." A man with your responsibilities reading about the end of the world. And what's this? "I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds."”

Captain Ramius: “It is an ancient Hindu text, quoted by an American.”

Political Officer: “An American?”

Captain Ramius: “Mmm. He invented the atomic bomb. And was later accused of being a communist.”

--The Hunt for Red October (1990 movie, not sure its in the book)

Battling narratives....

Public interest in his politics was relevant. He probably was a fellow traveler so what?

It absolutely did, for decades. I would argue that, until the movie, more people knew the name Fermi.

Google trends would disagree with you there [0].

Anecdotally, I've only ever heard the name Fermi in the phrase Fermi Paradox. Oppenheimer I know much more about, and I only know there's a movie about him because it's all over HN this month.

I'm sure that the red scare did tarnish his name for decades, but it looks to me like those decades had ended by 2004 when Google's trends pick up.

[0] https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%...

Other way around for me "Fermion" "Fermi-Dirac Statistics" "Fermi Energy Level" etc. There are a lot of things in physics named after Fermi not aware of anything named after Oppenheimer.

Born-Oppenheimer approximation.

"Fermi estimation" has leaked out of physics into other areas too.

I lived just close enough to Fermilab that my exposure to both names was fairly even. Probably not true of most people though

Surely not. Oppenhiemer "creating" the Atomic Bomb is pretty widespread general knowledge. Nobody outside physics geeks has heard of Fermi.

My context is from being outside of the US though.

Oppenheimer has an Epic Rap Battle of History, Fermi doesn't.

Case closed.

>Nobody outside physics geeks has heard of Fermi.

Plenty of folks who aren't physics geeks have heard of the Fermi Paradox.

Source: Am not a physics geek.

It clearly depends on where do you live. In Italy, Fermi is mostly known, instead of Oppenheimer, as one of the creator of the atomic bomb. It feels like another Marconi/Bell case.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Panisperna_boys

I think this is actually evidence of what the poster above is referring to - the long-term effects of Oppenheimer being unfairly discredited. Fermi has streets, schools and subway stations named after him all over Italy. Oppenheimer doesn't (at least not to anywhere near the same extent), even in the US, because during the period when this might most likely have happened, towards the end of his life and shortly after his death, he was still widely regarded as being a traitor.

Anyone who has ever pondered the existence of extraterrestrial life has heard of Fermi's paradox, while only history buffs interested in WWII or Japan or the Second Red Scare or alternatively science geeks interested in nuclear explosives have ever heard of J. Robert Oppenheimer.

Aren't there more people who are seriously interested in and studying WWII history than there are people who are seriously interested in and studying extraterrestrial life?

google trends seems to agree: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=world%20...

Not necessarily the bit with Oppenheimer in it. He's not hugely relevant outside making things go bang in new and exciting ways.

Whereas Fermi (in the context of the Fermi paradox) is kinda foundational, if you're in the extraterrestrial life field.

I'm a Japanese, Oppenhiemer isn't much famous name IMO, though his name may be written in textbook. How Manhattan project succeeded great is a minor topic in general. It's somewhat famous that Einstein encouraged developing of nuke and finally against for bombing. Fermi is somewhat famous for Fermi estimate.

The way I was taught, it was "yes he created the bomb, but as a manager." Which is... not entirely unfair.

The movie as in this new one? Are you serious?

How can I save my little boy from Oppenheimer's deadly toy?

Russians, Sting, 1985

-- so I would say Oppenheimer being the "inventor" of the atomic bomb was (literally) pop culture

“In the Soviet Union, a scientist is blinded by the resumption of nuclear testing, and he is reminded that Dr. Robert Oppenheimer’s optimism fell at the first hurdle.” ‘Waiting for the Great Leap Forwards’, Billy Bragg 1988

For me it was absolutely Fermi. And Feynman and Teller. But Oppenheimer definitely up there.

Oh also Leo fucking Szilard! From wikipedia ...

> He conceived the nuclear chain reaction in 1933, patented the idea in 1936, and in late 1939 wrote the letter for Albert Einstein's signature that resulted in the Manhattan Project that built the atomic bomb.

(Off topic) I thought Teller was the quiet one? ;-)

Reply on news.ycombinator.com