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Comment by akhayam | Hacker News Reader

Introvert and extrovert is the most widely misunderstood thing I have seen at work and in personal life. This article also doesn’t do justice to the nuance that introverts find interactions with other “draining” … but it’s not necessary that they suck at it.

I feel this way: having led teams of hundreds of people, I know I can have deep, meaningful and long conversations… but I don’t find them a source of joy.

I encourage reading this recent opinion post in Washington Post that delves into this nuance with a unique perspective: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/12/rebecca-m...

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I did briefly discuss this idea of interactions "draining energy" in the post here: https://www.vipshek.com/blog/interaction#balance-not-batteri....

I understand that the idea of draining vs. charging works for some people, but I always found this concept even more baffling. For me, when I've been in solitude for a while, I feel a restless desire to go out and interact with people. When I'm in that lonely state, I find social interaction "charging" and further solitude "draining."

But when I go interact with people for a long time—especially in a large group where I don't know people well—I feel an urge to retreat to solitude.

So am I charged by solitude and drained by interaction, or the other way around? It feels like the answer is "both"... so what am I supposed to do with all this?

One way you could think about my model is that you have four "batteries", each of which has an optimal "charge level." If you're under that level, you'll feel a desire to be in that state for a while. If you're over it, you'll feel an aversion to being in that state. And it's possible that if you're quite introverted, your optimal level of large-group interaction is close to zero.

If you're somewhere in the middle like me, though, the simple idea that you're "drained" by one thing or the other feels off.

As an anecdote, I am always drained by social interaction and always recharged by solitude.

I can be home alone all week and still dread going out to a party if I’m not in the mood. I’m a very social person, but it is still draining. I have never felt so alone that I need social interaction, but I have frequently felt a strong need to be alone.

But I’m also like the parent in that I’ve lead large teams, had greater interpersonal relationships, and have been hoisted to leadership positions regardless of if I was trying to get there or not.

Finally, I imagine the reality of extrovert vs introvert is similar to the modern understanding of gender as a spectrum. I would guess there are not many people that are wholly introverted or extroverted.

I think there are a spectrum of social interactions.

There are negative social interactions, and they frequently leave me drained, or seeking solitude.

There are busy interactions where lots of people require my time and attention even though I have other things to do - they can also leave me drained.

There are also positive interactions, with friends or maybe places where people are gathered with a common interest that leave me buoyant and full of energy and enthusiasm.

Even online interactions might count as interactions, and fill my day with various effects on my energy.

Pet interactions are generally pretty positive. I often wonder if some people use pets as proxies for human interaction (may be healthy or unhealthy)

Yea I think you’re getting close. I enjoy social interactions, but even the most enjoyable ones drain me, even though once I recharge, I end up seeking them out despite. Sometimes the negative emphasis of the word “drain” makes it tricky to understand

Yeah, agreed. I could be with my best friends doing my favorite activity at a pace that I chose and still be completely drained by the end of it, needing time to recoup.

I imagine that, just like how it is impossible for me to empathize with someone that gets re-energized from social interaction, it is nearly impossible for an extrovert to understand how introverts feel.

I am always drained by solitude and sometimes by social interaction. help

I think it's more than a one-dimensional thing. Like the idea of the "political compass". Just as a person's political views cannot be compressed to a single "left - right axis", their social preferences cannot be reduced to a single "introvert - extrovert axis".

How is a person with existing relationships vs. new people? Similar people vs. different people?

My theory is that a lot of people labelled "introvert" are just more selective then average in who they want to deal with.

I personally like having friends over but we all just kind of do our own thing\ sharing snacks. Having people in my space feels energizing and of course if there's something interesting on someone's mind we talk about it. But having to fill every minute with conversation to me is the draining part.

Two aspects I can think of that contribute to a sense of ‘draining’:

- how much one ‘masks’ one’s feelings

- how much attention/energy one spends deeply engaging with the other thoughtfully

Eg two very different examples of draining conversations:

1. you’re at a party hosted by someone you care about and being a fun guest, but more for the host’s sake because you care about them and want to show up for them and help assuage their worries their party might not be a success. you can keep your energy expenditure lowish but likely find yourself on social autopilot. passive engagement + commitment to fixing oneself to the event = energy cost

2. you run into a total stranger whose interests align exactly like yours and who is just as excited to talk to you as you are to them. But at the end of such conversations you have explored so much and learned so much from them, it takes a bit of a breather to disengage. Fun and active engagement but really high energy expenditure

This calls to mind Csikszentmihalyi’s concept of _flow_. There’s too much of it to go into here, but this page illustrates how it happens and what it's like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

I posit that any activity which falls short of flow state will also cause energy drainage in kind. What distinguishes introverts and extraverts in a given social interaction, then, has to do with the degree to which they consider themselves challenged and how skillfully they think they are performing. High challenge + high ability = flow, which is an energizing state where you lose track of time. Mess with those parameters a bit and you get boredom and anxiety (along with shades of other things), which are draining states different in kind.

Ok, but that doesn't explain why extended periods of solitude are draining

I have a feeling that "need to have solitude" and "need to not feel too lonely" are completely different needs. If the lonely feelings get strong enough, they'll outweigh the need for solitude.

To use a crude analogy, you can be both thirsty and busting to go to the toilet the same time.

I feel you batteries analogy with an optimal charge level perfectly encapsulates it.

For a battery, getting "drained" is an expected change, perhaps "discharge" would be a more neutral way to put it, but IMO it just comes down to personal imagery.

> I know I can have deep, meaningful and long conversations… but I don’t find them a source of joy.

Sorry to add to the flames, but many (most?) introverts generally do find joy in deep, meaningful long conversations. It's the small talk they tend to dislike.

The problem is trying to shoehorn everything into introvert vs extrovert. The reality is it's a vector. Small talk vs meaningful conversations is an axis different from enjoying crowds vs alone time.

AFAICT whether you find a conversation a source of joy is relatively orthogonal to being an introvert. It's whether it's draining or not. A conversation can be both a source of joy and draining.

It’s also who you’re interacting with that’s a big input. A party where you know no one but have to be at VS talking to your best friend or kids or spouse for example.

I would even argue, that it is depending on the context (on how you feel) that makes you introvert or extrovert in the situation. Not just a vector. I found it funny doing some tests, but once with the mindset of being a CEO, and in the other situation on the dancefloor, etc.

To further reaffirm your division between depth of conversation and intro- and extroversion, I enjoy small talk and deep conversation and I find both a source of joy.

Both, however, do drain me.

> This article also doesn’t do justice to the nuance that introverts find interactions with other “draining” … but it’s not necessary that they suck at it.

The nuance on the flip side that I see discussed even less is that extroverts are not necessarily actually good at interacting with people, especially in more structured settings, they just maybe enjoy doing it more. Presumably there is at least some correlation between extroversion and good social skills, since if nothing else the extrovert might get more practice. But my anecdotal experience is that they're definitely clearly distinct personality aspects that fairly often do not go together.

> having led teams of hundreds of people, I know I can have deep, meaningful and long conversations… but I don’t find them a source of joy

Do you consider yourself an introvert or extrovert? I am deeply introverted, but deep conversations are what I yearn for, but I find most people are not willing to engage in such, especially extroverts.

It was my understanding that most introverts actually feel deeply, which is precisely why social interactions that are not intellectually stimulating are draining. Though even the intellectually stimulating ones are still tiring, just not draining.

Seems like this is ascribing an awful lot of value judgement on personality type. I’ve had very deep conversations with people across the spectrum, and met a lot of introverts who couldn’t, or didn’t want to, talk at more than surface level.

I'm not sure what you mean by a value judgement. But these things are obviously personal, broad, statistical, and not absolute. Personality types are a thing though, and some types are more prone to certain behaviors and feelings than others. Doesn't mean it's always that way or better or worse.

Probably what's being re-hit upon is that there's more to personality types than introvert and extrovert.

It’s the notion that “extroverts” aren’t capable of holding deep, intellectual conversations or that “introverts” are more prone to them. I accept that may not have been your intent, but it’s how I read that comment.

I fully agree with the second thing you said.

To be fair, I said "not willing" and not "not capable". There was probably a hint of bias coming from an introvert and personality type that doesn't generally feel heard.

But I think the more broad and modern personality models beyond introvert/extrovert are better for this rather than the broad strokes I painted with.

I am a rather extreme introvert myself and also a people leader. The people who report to me often have no idea that I’m introverted because I am a strong communicator, and I genuinely enjoy talking to people. I _do_ find it to be a source of joy.

The primary difference between myself and my extreme extrovert wife is that at the end of the day I am emotionally drained and need some quiet time to recharge, while she’s still itching to talk.

The supposed "draining" of introverts sounds like a cold reading technique or something you'd read in a horoscope. It applies to nearly everyone to some degree.

Enjoy socialising but after a party you're glad to put your feet up and read a book? Get slight anxiety making small talk with strangers, to the point where you feel bad if you do it for more than six hours? Don't want to hang out with your boss at the mandatory company event on the weekend when you could be with your husband and kids? Congratulations, you're A) perfectly normal and B) an introvert, sort of, if you squint!

The problem is not that I don't get what it's like to feel drained, it's that I'm pretty sure everyone I hang out with except for literally one single person feels drained by social interaction at some point.

Reading a book after a party is not "perfectly normal".

That's not what draining means.

It may mean having to go to bed very early because you're all used up. The effects varies alot though.

It's not a preference.

Draining has no rigorous meaning at all, and the reader can interpret it however they damn well feel like.

I am sure that the vast majority of people have had at least one day where social duties overwhelmed them. Extroverts, meaning people who are never ever drained by social interaction (for whichever meaning drained is given) seem to be vanishingly rare.

It is widely misunderstood as a result of people taking that small piece Jung's overall personality theory and ignoring the rest. It's the lowest common denominator tweet sized "elevator pitch" you can extract from the overall theory.

You aren't "an" introvert or an extrovert, rather you have cognitive functions that are themselves introverted or extroverted and they are ordered in your personality between strongest and weakest.

Everyone has both introverted and extroverted functions, and the opposite is always the second strongest. This is why people make up the word "ambivert." People are also confused depending on whether that function is perceptual (intuition / sensory) or judgmental (thinking / feeling), with the perceptual ones, from the meme level understanding appearing introverted.

Jung may have invented the words, but he does not own them. Most will encounter the terms in the context of the Big Five model because Jung's theories have limited relevance today.

The most useful definition I've found personally is basing it on which of the modes provides rather than costs energy (mental/emotional/physiological)

Perhaps more nuanced words than the already-cheapened "joy" might be helpful? I don't find "joy" in dealing with people, I don't discover them a fountain of ecstasy, I just "like it" rather a lot. Perhaps you are expecting too much.

I think it's even possible to take joy in something you find draining. For example, exercise is great, but it tires you out and you need to rest.

>introverts find interactions with other “draining”

I'm pretty sure this is bullshit.

Level of drain = lack of trust in that person X overall level of anxiety

If you're highly anxious and socializing with people you dont trust (strangers, acquaintances) then the experience will be stressful and draining.

Ive met many self declared introverts who have no problem socializing for long periods in small groups with people they trust absolutely.

Ditto self declared extroverts who are "socially performing" in a critical sitation where they will be judged can't help but find that experience draining.

Well, no. I guess if you don’t know then you don’t know.

As an anecdotal personal example. I love my wife and kids dearly. I trust them, and feel no anxiety being around them. Yet it’s draining. Now they’re gone for a few days, and I feel very good being finally alone for a few days.

Likewise I enjoy getting together with friends and family. I’ve also learned to be sociable. But it’s draining. After a day of having to interact with people I really, really, really cherish being alone for a few hours with my own thoughts, and preferably silence.

We’re different like that, people in general, I mean.

You also adjust to a degree. With a family those longer moments can be as rare as a few times a year. I used to be alone for many hours or days almost daily when I was younger. But I’m doing fine. I really do enjoy the moments of solitude but I guess I don’t need them as much as I thought.

With this “draining” metaphor you’d think every introvert parent is a mere husk

Well, some of us are. :/

Recognizing that something takes effort doesn’t necessarily imply that the activity is not enjoyable or worth pursuing.

I mean, I do see how someone might believe that just because one finds an activity draining they’d strive to avoid it at all costs. But that really doesn’t have to be the case.

True. Pretty much everything worth doing is "draining"

> introverts find interactions with other “draining”

> I'm pretty sure this is bullshit.

As an introvert, it's spot on. I have no problems socializing with people, whether I trust them or not. I spend long periods (e.g., days camping) with groups that I trust. I enjoy all of it in the moment. I don't have anxiety. It's all still draining, and I need to spend days alone to recharge after days of socializing, enjoyable or otherwise.

I think if you use the model presented by the author of the article, it's less than you need to "recharge" but rather that after a few days you've filled your small group and large group bucket/quota, and now you need to fill that solitude bucket/quota.

It's just two different ways of describing the same phenomenon. I like the authors because it's much more multi-faceted and easier to find practical applications, at least in my mind. "I enjoy a good amount of solitude, and I've just spent several days socializing, so I'm going to prioritize alone time for the next few days" rather than "I need to recharge so I can be social again." It's similar, but I like the first one better.

Yeah, sure. One bucketing emptying over time and then refilling as you change activities is completely different than a battery which depletes over time and then recharges.

if you went camping on your own, you dont think you still need to recharge?

No, I do that to recharge.

Something about this interaction is funny to me. It's like an alien asking: but after you drink all that water, won't you die? And the human replies: no, I actually do that to stay alive.

camping is a pretty tiring activity though on its own

Personally I think camping is very relaxing. Usually I am camping on a walking holiday, and it's the walking that is physically tiring. Going back to the tent and sleeping is extremely relaxing.

Do you mean hiking?

So you could camp every day and never get tired?

I think what you call bullshit is a core part of the generally accepted definition of an introvert, so I'd want some more extraordinary proof than this in order to be persuaded.

> Ive met many self declared introverts who have no problem socializing for long periods in small groups with people they trust absolutely.

How do you know they had no problem socializing for long periods? Did you ask them, or did they just not complain about it to you? Part of the issue for many introverts is the social expectation is often set by a more extroverted culture, and they just try to fit in. That doesn't mean they prefer chatting with you for four hours rather than, say, two hours.

>How do you know they had no problem socializing for long periods? Did you ask them

Yes of course. I think pretty much every self declared introvert Ive asked about this had 1-5 people for whom spending time with them didnt "drain" them - e.g. best friend, parent, spouse, etc.

When they described what type of situations drained them that they enjoyed it would generally be something like going to a party where they didnt know anyone.

that's not enough evidence. while i would generally agree that it is true and matches my experience that the better i know people the less drained i get interacting with them, i have interacted with people i have never met before without being drained and i can get drained by people who i otherwise trust. in both cases what mattered was that i had to focus on them and not on myself. where i don't get drained with total strangers is when the topic of discussion is one where i can contribute a lot, vs a topic where i feel less secure. naturally interacting with best friends, partners and other close family, topics are often familiar and comfortable, and, uncomfortable topics are easy to avoid. at a party on the other hand it can be hit or miss, and usually hits are rare. out of several dozen events i can count two where someone i never met before and me found a topic so interesting that we were talking about it for hours. going home from those left me full of energy, when most others didn't.

> generally accepted definition of an introvert

As far as I can tell this is really just true for a sort of Reddit centric extremely online crowd, in the category of “everyone knows” stuff that just originates from random message board postings that catch on.

You're heavily conflating anxiety and introversion. My wife is an extrovert with anxiety - once she gets comfortable she's energized by people. She comes home bouncing off the walls. I'm an introvert - regardless of comfort level I come home and want to go to bed immediately.

Im pretty sure everybody gets energized once they've gotten fully comfortable with someone.

That process of getting comfortable is the relevant context though - not a virtual dial in their brain that goes from "introvert" to "extrovert".

Ha, I wish. The level of comfort with someone really only effects the rate of energy drain, at least in my case.

But that's not what I'm saying - I'm saying conversation drains me even if I'm with someone I'm comfortable with. I'm tired when it's over. My wife is not. She comes home excited.

It's very much like I have a hidden meter for dealing with other people. Once it's full, I'm done with people. It doesn't really matter how much I like or trust these people. I can get burned out from talking to folks at work and need space from my family and vice-versa. I just need time to be alone and not have to consider making conversation or entertaining anyone. I need space for my thoughts to expand and to not be constantly distracted by other people's "noise". I love my wife. I love my kids. I enjoy spending time with them. But when that social meter is full, regardless of how it got full, I have little ability to engage with them.

> Im pretty sure everybody gets energized once they've gotten fully comfortable with someone.

They don't though. You just sound like an extrovert that can't fathom that introverts exist.

Even if my family visit me and I am comfortable with them, I will still be extremely tired when they leave. I won't feel "energised"

hmm, that's an interesting perspective. see my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36795067 i can definitely see that the comfort level is a factor. however, it can take a long time before i get comfortable with someone. i have no idea how much, but a few hours at a party are almost never enough, unless we hit the right topic. so yeah, after those conversations i was bouncing off the walls too.

likewise i have given presentations on various topics in front of dozens or hundreds of people. my comfort level depended on how well prepared i was, and how the audience reacted. during the speech part anxiety is higher because i get little to no feedback, but then the Q&A can turn things around if people have lots of questions that show their interest in the topic.

oh, and when i am drained, i can't go to sleep. i have to do something interesting for myself for at least an hour or more in order to divert my thoughts away from the draining experience.

It does not matter how much I trust someone, or how relaxed I am, or indeed how much I enjoy myself with someone, being around people still drains me of energy. There are differences in how fast, but not whether or not it drains me.

I'm somewhere in that morass. I love socializing with people I know and enjoy. I hate social interaction with strangers and/or people I don't know well, don't like, etc. I'm also completely happy being by myself for long stretches of time. What's draining vs energizing for me is equally a mess.

Don't know what that makes me but I don't worry about the labels

The lack of trust aspect resonates with me. I find interactions with people I know well and connect with to be the opposite of draining. It seems like different people just have different criteria for what constitutes positive interaction. And my experience says even that varies for an individual, depending on mood, energy level, or whatever other factors.

>> introverts find interactions with other “draining”

> I'm pretty sure this is bullshit.

Both me and my SO are more introvert than not.

We've come to the conclusion that one of the core reasons it's so draining for us is that we puts a lot of thought into interactions and conversations, even superficial small talk ones.

At least in our experience, those who appear more extrovert seem to do less of that. They don't seem to reflect over all our actions, or everything we say. Some of it, or at certain times, sure. But seemingly not to the same degree.

If that is the case, then it is more draining, because we exert more mental effort.

> Level of drain = lack of trust in that person X overall level of anxiety

Speaking for myself at least, anxiety has nothing to do with it, nor lack of trust. I don't feel any anxiety striking a random conversation with someone in a bar or with a family member at home. And when I have a random conversation with someone in a bar, it doesn't matter if I trust them or not, because the topics are almost never intimate. With my family members I know I can trust them, so that's moot as well.

But both conversations can be quite draining, and at least for me, I suspect it has more to do with what I described above.

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