Amsterdam police ask VanMoof customers to stop accusing the company of theft

>The problem is that the customers did not agree for their property to be locked away for an indeterminate amount of time, so it makes sense for the police to gain entry and return customer owned bikes that are in for repair.

Things under repair being locked up until the curator determines what belong to who and if they owe money before it is returned after bankrupcy is standard practice under Dutch law. To the point that there are form letters available online to ask for your stuff back when a company has gone bankrupt.

>Bankruptcy proceedings have no bearing on bikes that are not property of the former

Well, not really. Bankruptcy laws can widely differ around the world, but for example if something of yours is on my properly and I go bankrupt then the bank puts a lock around my property then you must put a motion into the bankruptcy court to lay claim to and retrieve your property. It's likely you would be charged with trespass by both the bank and the land owner if you attempted to claim it.

Van Moof cannot even give you your property in most jurisdictions, the parties in the bankruptcy must agree that 'your' property actually belongs to you, and that the person going bankrupt is not committing some sort of fraud by giving away assets.

>"Just not immediately" is a big fucking deal for people in Amsterdam who use their bicycles as their primary means of transportation. Imagine you lived in Phoenix right now and the same thing happened with your car. You dropped off your Rivian or Lucid for repairs and -- surprise! -- they were actually on the brink of bankruptcy, so now the only way for you to get to work, pick up kids, etc. is to try walking, biking, or busing for miles in 110F+ degree heat until the courts figure out how to get your vehicle back to you.

It's not remotely the same. You can buy a used €100 bike in Amsterdam easily (which should be no big deal to people riding around on €2300 bikes). You're not walking miles in 110F heat to the store in Amsterdam, more like a 1 km (max) walk in 22c weather. I don't think you realize how common actual bike theft is in the Netherlands. It is in no way a big deal.

It's not de facto theft just because you write an unhinged comment and then claim that it is.

No, it's not at all like this. Bikes are so ubiquitous here that before given this bike in for repair, the people would already have secured (likely already had) a spare bike for the duration of the repairs.

And no, it's not theft, this is how bankruptcy works. All assets and _anything on the property_ is frozen, until creditors sort through it all. There's nothing illegal or dodgy going on, it's just that some people had the misfortune to have their bikes on the bankrupt companies property.

_Man_, you guys like to complain about nothing.

That doesn't make any sense to me.

A company doesn't take ownership of items that come in for repair/servicing, and simply locking other people's property into a room/shop/garage is hardly a basis for ownership as otherwise thieves could just nick something, lock it into a garage and then claim ownership.

John Gregory Dunne long ago wrote a piece about his wife (Joan Didion) wrangling with the IRS to get back his shirts from a laundry the IRS had seized. With a good deal of persistence, she managed to do it. When handing back the goods, somebody from the IRS told him, Your wife is a grouch--which hardly seems fair.

> Anyone know of an e-bike brand that doesn't have the capability to connect to the Internet?

Quite literally almost all of them? Just go to any bike shop and look around. I'm sure there's probably a lot of sponsored ads online for internet/app e-bikes, but an e-bike is just a normal bike with a motor and a battery. I live where e-bikes are extremely common and I have never seen one with any kind software included.

I'm pretty sure radpower bikes still don't have internet access (mine is a few years old so not 100% certain). They come only partially assembled though, so if you aren't comfortable with bike maintenance, pay someone who is to do it.

In very much the same train of thought as in the necessity of intermediary banks, the property is yours the moment you pay for it. However, since the transaction didn't occur in person, it may very well be the property of the seller with the obligation to deliver the goods.

My wording may be a bit off, I'm no expert. But this is my interpretation of the matter.

I personally have a strict sense of "ownership". The easy proxy for it is: "Is there open firmware developed in FLOSS that I can replace the existing with?"

Obviously, that's not a 100%. Perhaps something like this is better:

"The thing is owned by me, when I pay for it, and it doesnt have irrevocable tie-backs to the company." Now, my strategy here isn't even foolproof, with auutomatic updates that can reverse features. Ideally, even automatic updates are a trap UNLESS you have a way to roll them back.

That's why I highly prefer hardware with FLOSS options. That's really the only way to guarantee my "ownership".

On a general level, depending on the incoterms. Specifically, it depends on whatever contract and term and conditions you agreed to as a customer. And whether or not those hold up to legal scrutiny.

> when exactly does something become your property?

When it is protected with violence, a.k.a. "the police."

Police don't enforce ownership? Well, I guess you never owned it.

Property rights are not a binary, all or nothing thing, so the answer is complicated.

When do you have the right to use something? When do you have the exclusive right to use it? When do you have the right to eject others? When do you have the right to destroy it? Copy it? Sell it?

Some of these rights you may never have. Some you have the moment you pay, others are practically impossible to enforce until you take delivery.

when you pre-pay for something it doesn't necessarily exist yet so it can't be yours yet.

Well, in practice this is a surprising complex thing. You won't get any useful general rule.

Then post a less inaccurate article, already:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/07/rival-e-bike-maker-h...