Framework Laptop 16 pre-orders are now open
community.frame.work
community.frame.work
The "overkill" system with a Ryzen 9 7940HS, 32GB RAM and 1TB SSD is $2099. A pseudo comparison to the 16 inch MacBook Pro with M2 Pro, 32GB RAM and a 1TB SSD is $3099.
Also these systems are cheaper if done DIY and no Windows tax. Framework really might have a winner if this system can live up to their promises.
EDIT: The verge also has a deep dive into the system https://www.theverge.com/22665800/framework-laptop-16-hands-...
Adding all those situational discounts is not a fair comparison since it requires a very specific set of circumstances to achieve it.
Sit the 15 inch MBA next to the 16 inch MBP and the screens look identical. Performance wise the M2 w unified memory crushes X86 systems across the benchmarks at half the power budget.
No, they do not.
As far as the SSD, the base option comes with one 256GB NAND flash IC, where if you upgrade to 512GB they have to add a second. That matters because adding a second means you double the IO bandwidth using their current design. It’s something like 3500 vs 7500 MB/s. If you add more NAND modules you also scale up the IO speed further but the difference between 3500 and 7500 is significant for all workloads where above that you probably won’t see a gain except in niche applications like video editing, assuming you have the complimentary processing power and unified memory to utilize that throughput. For storage, Apple provides 2TB cloud service for $10/mo and these have wifi 6E so it’s cheaper to use the cloud than buy the storage, assuming it’s not working storage, and safer too.
Also, upgrades on Apple products hold their market value very poorly. The M2 studio just came out and maxed out M1 units are on sale NIB at 1/4 price of retail from 3 months ago, which is not at all a true quantification of performance since the M2 is only what 15-20% faster.
So after quite some research for the MBA 15; 16GB + 512GB + 70W adapter is the optimum for power draw, performance, cost and value preservation.
Overall, it seems the best value strategy with Apple products is to take the first upgrade for memory and storage and leave it at that. You can then resell every year and recoup 60% and upgrade to the latest w a new battery. Apple is actually very cheap after the first investment considering the productivity and time saving benefits, and you can’t steal an Apple device. Just don’t drop it
Also if you are considering big upgrades, compare the cost to just buying two base units as the base units are way closer to the manufacturing cost. Often there is more benefit to having two expendable units and they will hold their resale value better.
In theory you'd take a latency hit, but in reality (at least the M1) was limited by it's memory controller and had DRAM latencies of ~100ns, which is actually worse than Zen 4 at ~70ns. This is because before querying RAM, you first need to query every level of cache, and then you hit the latency of the DRAM itself, so the actual distance is not a dominant factor.
So no, unified memory doesn't give any actual performance advantage. It could in theory (and marginally), in practice it's just marketing.
[1]: https://www.notebookcheck.net/M2-vs-R7-7840HS_14521_14948.24...
Also, the CPU isn't the only powerdraw in a system, in my use the screen alone averages more power draw.
It turned out more effective for me to buy a Chromebook and build a remote workstation to do actual work from, with the added benefit that I don't care if my Chromebook is lost or stolen because it doesn't store any data and costs less than a screen replacement (<$179).
I also wasn't impressed by the highly externalized "there's an adapter for that" dongle-shuffle for basic ports when Apple did it 2017, and if I wanted to bring it all with me, I'd still need to buy and lug around a eGPU if I wanted to do any compute. Plus I get like 14 hours of full-brightness work time off of one charge, similar to an M1 MacBook Air.
That's just my use case, of course. I've also built an SFF system with eDP when I have to travel and generate a lot of data and an Alienware m17 isn't enough.
> "there's an adapter for that" dongle-shuffle
> lug around a eGPU
One of the unique selling points of the Framework is that you can customize the ports to your needs, so dongles are unnecessary unless you need a whole lot of ports. And the Framework 16 doesn't need an eGPU, you can plug in an actual GPU that integrates with the body of the laptop.
This laptop isn't personally for me but I can see why people would like it. Also my workflow requires a lot of GUI applications for simulating and visualizing robotic movement and that is incredibly hard with ChromeOS or macOS.
I'm very interested by the Framework Chromebook, but it's a bit excessive for my needs. I'm also provided a lot of Apple hardware, which I'll use in the office.
I haven't exceeded 1GB/mo on cellular in over a year, but I also have easy access to wifi.
I don't use usbip, but it's an easy setup. I do use kvm/libvirt. Tailscale didn't exist when I built everything, but the documentation is excellent, and I could replace most of this with similar convenience.
Everything I'm mentioning here is locally hosted.
I connect via either wireguard or Unifi Teleport, depending on which network is needed. Wireguard connects to guacamole which manages connections to more secure core services, controllers, and shares. Unifi Teleport allows easy access to surface services like a book server, IOT, NVR, webuis, APIs, etc.
Chrome remote desktop is much more convenient than I expected, and I use it to connect to friends' systems or to hop onto graphical instances that I don't care to set up lasting connections to.
My three primary nodes are for GPGPU compute, "big" jobs, and storage. I've removed most IPMI/IPKVM to allow more flexible consolidation and upgrades. My "OOBM" is now UPS with remote power plugs with always-on BIOS settings. Once things gracefully halt, I can kill power if/until needed (my downtimes are all planned, but I reserve the capability).
I've greatly simplified over the past half decade so I can focus more on using than administrating, and while I haven't removed all of it, I try hard not to create environments more complicated than I can understand after not being touched for a few months.
[1] https://olkb.com/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35280168
LinusTechTips recently did a tour of one of the assembly stations in Taiwan. The DIY editions are fully assembled, tested, then disassembled, and put into packages. Considering that DIY has an additional labour intensive step, how come they're so much cheaper? Shouldn't the prebuilt ones be cheaper because they have less labour involved?
The memory, storage, bezel, and Input Cover that are temporarily installed into DIY Edition systems get cycled back through the line at the factory and reused repeatedly. If you order memory and storage as part of a DIY Edition configuration, those are new modules specific to your order that get added to the package at our fulfillment center. This means that we can enable thousands of different orderable DIY Edition configurations while only having a handful of unique configurations leaving the factory.
(from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36773107, a duplicate submission)
[1] https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/168132220662488268...
Not to create FOMO, but I would expect these to go quickly then.
Overall I think the hardware is great, my complaints are mostly with software/firmware/BIOS. My biggest complaints are with battery life, especially during standby. Framework has been working on a fix since 2022 but no dice so far.
-Sent from my Framework laptop at maximum brightness because the brightness keys don't work unless I disable other sensors on the laptop
If you don't want to mess with software power limiting, you'll have to wait for benchmarks of the 7840U.
[1]: https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-9-7940HS-analysis-Ze...
I might have to upgrade, the Intel processor I have right now is very annoying.
What's the difference between the HS and the U? I'm not good at specs :/
Pass. I'm not so poor that I'm eating cat food and rummaging through trash for aluminum cans. I'm not the target market for this laptop.
I'm still waiting here, money in hand, Framework. Could you please let me give it to you?
(Directly, I don't want to use a dropshipping middleman)
Maybe it's related to VAT? I can't imagine that their payment processor won't handle that for them, though.
I often order stuff from Germany because their VAT for computer stuff is lower than here.
This has AMD Processor with integrated graphics only. I have never used a computer with AMD processors, will it be able to use Nvidia GPU later at all?
No word on other vendors' GPUs—yet.
There's an AMD Radeon™ RX 7700S GPU available for 400$. The Verge article implied that they'd be releasing new GPUs in the future, as well. (emphasis on implied - it's not a certainty.)
I would like an option for normal barrel jack power connector. I found USB-C power delivery very unreliable and not universal. For many applications (Pi4, Rock5) you are limited to original makers power adapter. Framework in this case is using very new PD spec to deliver 180W, so I assume it will be the same.
There is also power renegotiation, when voltage drops to zero for couple of seconds. This board is also supposed to operate without batteries!
With barrel plug I just need to know diameter and voltage. I already have many adapters, or power sources. Much easier to operate.
All minipcs (minisforum, beeling) come with barrel plug and USB PD.
With USB-C PD, If you live sufficiently close to a Best Buy (or similar) you can usually just get the USB PD brick with the most listed versions supported and have it work "good enough" but I have definitely seen laptops/PD brick combinations that negotiate rather low power.
It is OK for travelling. But my portable USB-C monitors randomly switch off for power renegotiation!
USB-C is not so great for stationary use. I always run into issues where all USB ports can not be fully powered, despite sufficient power rating on USB-C adapter. Older Macbooks would even discharge, while plugged, USB-C could not deliver enough juice, for high performance apps!
And those bloody things are supper expensive (like 100 euro). Cheaper are highly questionable and not even grounded!
Hey man, I like the light vibrations I get when I rest my forearms below the keyboard at night.
Nope.
I literally have never seen power renegotiation after the first time I plug a device in even a single time. I have seen problems where external displays don't find display signal just as you do with hdmi or displayport sometimes but I've never had a power problem. Are you using sketchy cables perhaps?
Not sure why you would want to though, there are plenty of good Linux distros available and Windows is a much better choice for gaming if you don't need handheld specific features.
My dream is a gaming laptop with the same type of suspend/resume capability that the Steam Deck has
Picture wise the bezel on monitor is horribly large, and there were comments about chance of module with columnar layout on keyboard that didn’t materialize :(
(Assuming they don't, won't load for me)
They've been teasing their Virgo prototype [2] [3] [4] on their social media feeds.
[1] https://system76.com/accessories/launch
[2] https://fosstodon.org/@carlrichell/110571781656976874
Execution is everything, including the buttons. Someone designing this might also want to look at the Trackpoint buttons from before Lenovo switched to flat keyboards, and see the tactile merits of that (even when combined with flat keyboards).