The PoWeR technique: a strategic approach to self-discipline | Hacker News Reader

The PoWeR technique: a strategic approach to self-discipline

indiehackers.com

142 pointsChanningAllen60 comments

I strongly recommend the book referenced in the article. I finished reading it a few weeks ago and is a fascinating coverage of various hypotheses regarding the connection between proper breathing and health. I'm still experimenting with some of the items from the book, but it's a good read for anyone interested in self-hacking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath:_The_New_Science_of_a_L...

It is question of motivation. Motivation uses logical forebrain, best way is to take thinking out of equation.

- marshmallow test is invalid, if kids do not trust adult. It would not work on kids from rough neighbourhood, who would get second marshmallow stollen. Single marshmallow is logical choice in this case. Apply that on savings and inflation...

- if phone alarm does not wake you up, use lamp with timer. 10000 lumens works pretty well...

- phone doom scrolling can be avoided by switching phone into black and white, or inverting colors... Or disable java script everywhere... Or use very very slow proxy server...

Key is not to think about it. The moment you have to switch on your brain, to convince yourself, is the moment you lost!

These are fascinating points, and I'd like to know more. Can you link to your sources?

The case of smartphones is unique. There is a war waged by corporations with hundreds of thousands of employees to take the most of your attention out from you (for sweet ad money), with attention engineers working on new designs and innovations all the time. I don't think that is a battle %95 of people can win. Just look around to people. I avoid fighting the battle by making heavy use of screen time features to ban all un-absolutely-necessary features (apps, websites) and whitelist only a small amount of apps and websites. And I make those restrictions unchangeable by myself, otherwise it becomes pointless.

> take the most of your attention... with attention engineers working

Typical victimhood conspiracy theory.

> I avoid fighting the battle by making heavy use of screen time features to ban

So you avoid that by spending more time on your phone. And someone has parental control over your phone...?!

That’s not a conspiracy theory it’s a job

As said below, it’s a job not a conspiracy theory. Heavy use means I use the features extensively. This results in me effectively using my phone only for necessary things, no games, no social media. I don’t understand why you thought I’d spending more time when I use these.

No one has parental control over my phone except me. I have a system which can enter the parental control password (acting as a keyboard over bluetooth) when certain conditions are met, such as when I enter a certain geographical area. The difficulty of having to walk half an hour to unlock the password prevents me from impulsively unlocking parental controls to doomscroll. The system is still under consctruction though.

Working smarter to avoid “using willpower” is a thing since ancient Greeks: https://www.awesomestories.com/asset/view/Odysseus-and-the-S... I pretty much don’t believe in the whole willpower thing (being like a muscle) though.

I tried the lamp thing.

Attached it to a smart switch and programmed it to turn on at 7:30am every weekday.

I now get my best sleep between 7:30 and whatever time it is when I jump out of bed screaming because I've overslept.

The only thing that reliably wakes me up is the "Your New Morning Alarm" song by Marc Ribellet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enYdAxVcNZA

There are still some mornings where one has to move to stage 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z-9RCuV0Lg

This one, this one will surely help me break my social media addiction...

Aside from some trick (as in the article) of using the breath to momentarily affect the amygdala, I believe the general emerging rule is to pause, in response to a temptation, just long enough to call to mind a preferable/practical alternative. I've seen this characterized as "you only need a moment of willpower".

I would recommend Walter Mischel's 2014 book "The Marshmallow Test." He argues that the power of the marshmallow test is not in demonstrating that some children innately have more self-control than others, but in revealing how this skill can be cultivated and improved with practice and the right strategies.

I think the critiques are completely valid, Mischel did not account for many variables like socioeconomic status, family environment, etc. However, I do not believe it necessarily disproves his conclusion of being able to cultivate skills like self-control.

Yes, that famous marshmallow test has now been debunked several times from several angles. Many of them come down to the issue that the test was not measuring the participants' willpower so much as it was measuring their confidence that the test administrator would follow through on their promise.

So regardless of the validity of the method proposed here, I'd say that framing this article around references to that experiment is a mistake.

I’d argue it offers an equally important conclusion; the people around you have better outcomes if you give them reason to trust you will follow through on your word.

i always find it interesting how hostile people generally are to these sort of ideas, or towards anything that contains the implication that these problems are something that can be worked on and aren't just something that people are helpless victims of. it really is like clockwork, i knew what these comments were going to be like before i even read any of them.

i guess "it's not my fault" is an easier pill to swallow than "this weakness i have means i have to work harder than most people to compensate for it".

HahaaH!! After intently reading the first few paragraphs, I remembered that I have to mow the yard! Off now to that place of self-discipline.

Some of the best advice I've heard from alcoholics who got sober is: if you can have two drinks and then stop, you don't have a drinking problem. Similarly for self-control: if you have enough patience to read this comment, you don't have a self-control problem. Don't get sober for fun, it's no fun.

Hmm. The way I see it, self control is not a switch that is flipped on or off, it's definitely more like a spectrum of some kind, and generally I think having more of it is always going to be an improvement. Can't attest to whether or not this particular article's advice is actually useful; explanation hits me as a bit pop-sci but even if there were no scientific reason it should work, I bet it still helps in a sort-of placebo way.

But I digress. If I want to lose weight, I know "going on a diet" is not how it works. You need lifestyle changes that you keep. You need to change your relationship with food, exercise, and have some self-restraint to continue to make better choices and hold yourself to them.

But that does require deciding that you should "lose weight" or perhaps "eat healthier". On the other hand, if you decide that two beers every so often is OK with you, well, of course, everyone is pretty much entitled to decide that for themselves. But maybe to some degree, self-discipline is also partly not letting oneself make excuses for their own pointlessly harmful (even if only a tiny bit at once) behaviors that they'd probably ultimately be better off without. It's easy, since well, all of us, including me, do this sort of thing all the time: we're only human, after all.

That said, there's obviously no objectively correct answer, it's definitely not that simple. Nobody orients their lives around just what is "healthier" or "safer" because that would be boring and depressing, no doubt about it. But to the point about alcohol, I don't really drink anymore and even though I never had a drinking problem, I just don't really miss it. It never really did a ton for me, I mostly am just dumber when drunk. I'd prefer to be in control of my state of mind for the most part, so I don't generally have interest in drugs that impair your state of mind much. Not to mention, alcohol is probably not good for you in moderation after all anyways, so eh.

I feel that it's pretty likely that people need to hear different things at different phases of life, though, and this is just what I feel like I need with where I'm at now. Maybe I'll have to throw it all out later :)

What do you mean? Soberity is indeed not fun, it's just more peaceful and not miserable.

> In short: You hold your breath and don't allow yourself to breathe again until you begin taking an action that aligns with your goals.

So...this is a method to develop iron self-discipline, which requires nothing to start save for iron self-discipline.

No, the point is that the self discipline needed to hold one’s breath is lower than the self discipline needed to take one specific values-aligned action. And that, in turn, is lower than the self discipline needed to simply not do the thing that isn’t values-aligned, without a method.

Of course doing anything requires some degree of self discipline, if you want to call it that. But not all actions need iron-clad discipline.

As someone with severe ADHD this is one of the only strategies that seem to work for me!

Really glad to hear that. My recommendation is to put a lot of emphasis on the "environment" step toward the end of the article. Otherwise, you might find yourself gaining a merely temporary hold of self-control only to get distracted and fall back into a previous pattern of thinking/behavior.

my technique has always been "if you need to do something but your ADHD won't let you, refuse to do anything else in the meantime". it takes less effort than suddenly deciding to get up and do the thing, but if done properly, culminates in you eventually deciding to get up and do the thing anyway. never thought of the holding breath thing though, that would probably result in less literally-fifteen-minute pauses wouldn't it

Couldn't get part the foundation on the debunked marshmallow test.

Not sure it was debunked, maybe a bit deflated though. The replication only found the effect to have half of the power as the original.

Edit: nvm looks like it's garbage lol https://anderson-review.ucla.edu/new-study-disavows-marshmal...

The replication problems of the marshmallow test are certainly interesting, but I'm not sure how they are relevant to the point being made by Robert Sapolsky in the quoted passage.

His point has nothing to do with the predictive powers of the test. Instead it's that the children who succeeded in deferring gratification succeeded by means of effective strategies rather than by stoicism or genetics.

why does the like button cover 15% of my screen (mobile) and pop off the bottom constantly, making it even harder to read? and you can't dismiss it?

Perhaps the author meant "clenching."

just short of kegel exercises

Indeed the author did. Thanks for the catch.

Easier just to take a modafinil pill - seems that when I do that I get everything I need to do done that day.

Pardon me for asking what sounds like an aggressive or leading question, I assure you it’s not: if you have to take a pill to get your work done, could it be that you’re doing the wrong work? I always feel like if I have to take drugs to accomplish something non-medical, maybe I wasn’t meant to accomplish that thing.

What an overcomplicated load of baloney. If you become aware that you’re scared, stressed or overactive and distracted, do some 4-4-4-4 box method breathing until your mind calms down. The end. Just saved you having to remember this stupid acronym and this “ransom decision” nonsense. What’s more, it’s a proven technique that’s used by military personnel in life or death scenarios, as opposed to whoever this person is who’s claiming to have “10,000 learning cycles” of self discipline, whatever the fuck that means.

10000 of anything is just key wording to allude to being a 'master' at something since that number was arbitrarily used to determine who or who is not an expert.

It was referring to hours of practice so 10,000 hours made you a master but what the fuck constitutes 10,000 learning cycles of self discipline? Has he spent 10,000 hours sat in meditation like a monk? I highly doubt it. It’s nonsense the author is using to try and give himself some credibility.

He also links to a blog post describing his “somewhat hardcore work routine” and how adhd is his “superpower”. It’s a hard pass from me.

Ya, I was referring to the book Outliers. When ever I here someone mention 10k of anything related to mastery or skill I assume they're parroting that book

Never heard of it, but according to random website [0].

> Box breathing—also known as square breathing and 4-4-4-4 breathing—is a breathwork first popularized by Navy SEALs who used it to quickly sharpen concentration and enhance alertness. It requires inhaling for four counts, holding your breath for four counts, exhaling for four counts, and then holding your breath again for four counts.

[0] https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/box-breathing

It's quite relaxing, but I get the impression that's because your mind is filled with "Count to 4"/"Blarg my nose is stuffy"/"Jesus why is holding my breath for 4 seconds so hard"/"Wow I actually have to push to empty my lungs in 4 seconds"/etc

Haha, you have forever ruined box breathing for me, from now on I will only think about those things :)

For anyone interested, I first came across it in Unbeatable Mind by Mark Divine. If I remember right it also goes into the OODA loop and other mental models, tips and tricks plus some info on physical fitness and flexibility. Good book.

Yeah it does seem a little bit more complex than necessary. Simple methods, simple life

Author here. I am a fan of box breathing, along with several other "proven" breathing techniques.

Not sure what the downside is of experimenting with new techniques to add to one's tool set? Keep in mind that I'm just a guy on the internet who discovered something that worked and decided to share it with others in the hope that they'd also find it helpful.

The only downside is wasted time, and possibly wasted money if people get hooked into the productivity rabbit hole and end up spending ridiculous amounts of money on apps, books, gadgets and whatever else trying to be more productive.

I say this as someone who was probably like you once. I took a Big 5 personality test in my mid twenties that said that I had a low conscientiousness score which meant that I was pretty much destined to be a low earner as a high conscientiousness score is the trait most linked to high earners and achievement. What followed was probably a period of about seven years where I also tried all the meditation techniques whilst relentlessly trying to optimise my productivity, work and life, resulting in an inevitable burn out.

Following that, I like many others on here, have ended up just using a few text files for organisation and I am probably more organised than I have ever been. I use one file with day headings with tasks underneath that I plan to do on each day. And then I have other files for projects that just contain lists of tasks relating to that project. When I'm ready to work on one of those tasks I move them into the main file. It's that simple. I am happier and more focussed than I was using any of these other systems.

I make my text files in Obsidian, other people use org mode, some people use Google/Apple notes and others use Vim and plain text files. Even though it lead me to where I am now, I still look back and cringe at all the wasted time and energy I spent investigating and using all these other systems. I've done comments on reddit and elsewhere outlining my own overly convoluted systems that I might go back and delete in case someone stumbles on them and they lead people down the wrong path. KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid, really is the best strategy. And I suspect that also applies to regaining control with breathing which is why 4-4-4-4 works so well.

I remember the enthusiasm and confidence I felt when I thought I'd found some great method and how much I wanted to share it so don't let me stop you if that's what you want to do. But I'd wager in five years you'll have forgotten all about this, you'll be using something far simpler, and you will probably also cringe if you do remember it or come across an article like this from someone else.

> I say this as someone who was probably like you once. … I also tried all the meditation techniques whilst relentlessly trying to optimise my productivity, work and life, resulting in an inevitable burn out. … Following that, I have ended up just using a few text files for organisation and I am probably more organised than I have ever been.

I applaud your journey. (Genuinely!) But isn't it possible that even though you and I have followed a similar path re productivity systems, the path has suited me better than it has suited you? And not because either of us is a better or worse person than the other, but because we're simply different?

Here's the way I see it [0]: Society is a pack of cards with multiple suits, and there's an ace in each suit. If someone else's ace card doesn't work for you, it doesn't necessarily mean they're full of sh*t; it might just mean they belong to a different suit.

[0] https://www.indiehackers.com/post/chasing-other-peoples-ace-...

I agree with you that everyone is different and there's more than one path up the mountain so if you find this useful then keep using it. I would say that it's a well explored mountain and that the main routes tend to have emerged for a reason but thousands of mountaineers carve their own routes up mountains every year and there is something to be said for that as it brings its own knowledge.

This is about exercising self-discipline, not calming yourself down?

> that you’re scared, stressed or overactive and distracted,

I believe that would come under overactive and distracted considering the author states "Maybe you're doomscrolling a social feed instead of working on that important project."

Can you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the site guidelines when posting here? You broke quite a few of them here.

"Please don't fulminate."

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."

"When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. 'That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3' can be shortened to '1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

It's fine to disagree but please do so thoughtfully and without the vitriol or putdowns.

Can I have edit permissions restored so I can rewrite it to be less inflammatory? I was harsh because I've wasted a lot of my time on this stuff which I'd rather help others avoid - I went into this in a reply to the author in the comment thread for context.

For what it's worth I would reword it as:

If you become aware that you’re scared, stressed or overactive and distracted, do some 4-4-4-4 box method breathing until your mind calms down. I believe this a better method than the one suggested in this article - it is a proven technique that’s used by military personnel in life or death scenarios. This post strikes me as a convoluted system that is going to be difficult to remember in the heat of the moment and therefore difficult to implement successfully. I am also sceptical about the effectiveness of the “ransom decision”. “10,000 learning cycles” of self discipline is also vague and doesn’t really map to the original 10,000 hours concept. I personally believe you’re far better off sticking to simple solutions for productivity and self discipline.

Sure! I've reopened the edit window so you can change it how you want.

(and I hear you about the conversation downthread - I didn't see that earlier)

On second thought can we leave it up, as then anyone who sees the thread has a good example of an inflammatory comment and how to rewrite it to be more in keeping with the spirit of the site? If not then I will go back and change it.

Sure, no problem.

Just a note that I found this thread valuable :), offering to keep that comment was a good idea.

Glad it helped. I think it's generally better to admit and take responsibility for your mistakes rather than trying to pretend they never happened otherwise we struggle to grow.

> it’s a proven technique that’s used by military personnel in life or death scenarios,

What if it’s not life and death and you just want to resist the temptation to take a cookie from the cookie jar. 4-4-4-4 seems a bit overkill for that.

What, more so than holding yourself hostage by holding your breath? The aim of 4-4-4-4 is to get into the habit of calming the mind down so that the desire passes with the subsequent realisation that all desires pass. This seems like it's relying on willpower which is only going to take you so far.

Lol

Mom

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