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waiseristy

These HN threads about trucks are amazing. It’s like watching the same movie over and over again

* Kei trucks are the coolest. Big gubment is making it so we can’t register them due to protectionism!

* Chicken tax chicken tax chicken tax

* Big trucks cause more crashes because reasons!

* Trucks are just lifestyle vehicles and nobody actually needs or uses them

Over and over and over again

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Don't forget the small penis accusation.

I have an F250, which I drive about 2000 miles a year, almost 100% of the time it has a >30ft trailer behind it. But that one time that the stars align and I need it for a grocery trip, a bunch of people are thinking "see, that guy doesn't need a truck" and it reinforces whatever internal monologue they have going.

Meanwhile, approximately everyone here routinely drives alone in a vehicle capable of carrying 5-7 people. (and right about now, someone is about to reply with 'ride a bike, cars suck!')

Just curious, what so you do for a living? Or what's your hobby?

Isn't the F250 a huge vehicle and that trailer seems huge, is it a boat?

Software, just like so many others on HN. The trailer is an RV we take out every couple weeks during the nice weather season. It takes over 1300 pounds of payload capacity just for the trailer itself, which doesn't leave much for anything else (hitch, cargo, humans, canine). That's how I ended up trading the F150 we had for an F250. And yes, the F250 is pretty big. It's actually not a lot bigger dimensionally than an F150 (same cab, even), but it's usually taller, and it has a very stiff suspension and a live axle in the front, so it feels a lot bigger. Thus why mine rarely goes anywhere it doesn't need to go. My Model 3 is far more comfortable as a daily.

So your F250 is an accessory for your recreational vehicle.

I'm confused - are you missing a zero?

The F150's towing capacity appears to be 5,000 to 14,000 pounds (random source: https://veteransfordtampa.com/ford-f-150-towing-capacity). You could tow a 1,300 pounds trailer with a regular car, e.g. the 2023 Ioniq 5 has 2,300 pounds of towing capacity.

1300 lbs tongue weight.

Which is a big fucking trailer at 10% tongue weight.

No, he's not towing 1,300 pounds, he's towing something that reduces carried cargo capacity by 1,300 pounds. (The impact is, IIRC, typically a bit over 10% of loaded trailer weight.)

I'm slightly confused.

In Europe Volkswagen Passat, which is a regular sedan, can tow up to 2000kg braked (I think that's 4400 pounds) and 750 kg unbraked (1600 pounds):

https://www.carsguide.com.au/volkswagen/passat/towing-capaci...

Unless these sites use different measurement systems for towing (could be, I have no idea about these things), wouldn't a much smaller but more powerful car do?

In Europe people regularly tow RV trailers with Volvo V60 wagons...

Having looked into RV trailers in both the US and EU, I can say that the US trailers are by and large MUCH bigger than in the EU. A quick Google search showed a trailer[0] on sale in the UK, weighing in at 3289 lb. This is a typical size that I would see being towed around where I live in southern Germany. In the US, a typical trailer[1] size could come in at ~4500 lbs. Mind you, this weight is what we call dry, not counting the weight of a filled fresh water tank, important living items (i.e. food, dishes, clothing, etc), and any other items you might want to take camping.

Although this is (slightly) on the more extreme side, "fifth-wheels"[2] are also common to see on the road. These certainly require larger vehicles to pull.

[0]https://autoline24.uk/-/auction/caravan-trailers/Bailey/Pega... [1]https://rv.campingworld.com/rvdetails/used-travel-trailer-rv... [2]https://rv.campingworld.com/rvdetails/used-fifth-wheel-rvs/2...

> Having looked into RV trailers in both the US and EU, I can say that the US trailers are by and large MUCH bigger than in the EU.

Hmmm... interesting.

It does make sense, though. Everything is bigger in the US: cars, roads, parking lots, nature reserves, people :-p

> https://rv.campingworld.com/rvdetails/used-fifth-wheel-rvs/2...

This is basically a house on wheels at this point :-)

I dunno, sounds like your beef is with the folks who buy the same truck as you for no reason other than the look, not the folks who are seeing and mocking that trend.

The latter seem to exist in far greater quantity, however. I live in a suburban neighborhood with plenty of trucks, and I see them doing truck things all the time. Towing boats, travel trailers, fifth wheels, or hauling stuff. I can't think of a single example within a quarter of me where someone owns a truck for looks. These are all just garden variety F150s and similar, rarely the higher trim models, and not a one of them is a bro-dozer.

I won't deny the silly bro-dozers exist, they definitely do. But at least in my area they are just a fraction of the total trucks on the road.

They are statistically not doing pickup truck things. Pickup truck owners haul stuff once per year on average. That's the difference that you're not seeing.

You think that the problem is those "bro-dozers", and everyone else just needs a truck. The reality is that most people don't need a truck, and by driving one everyone else's life gets worse.

Yes, the problem is the "imma gonna haul whatever thing to my house" instead of, you know, have it delivered by someone. They'd win time but lose the (small) psychological satisfaction

> and right about now, someone is about to reply with 'ride a bike, cars suck!'

Naah, I wouldn’t do a thing that. I’ve lived in low-bike suburbs — hated it, but I know the score. :)

> Meanwhile, approximately everyone here routinely drives alone in a vehicle capable of carrying 5-7 people. (and right about now, someone is about to reply with 'ride a bike, cars suck!')

I mean, yeah. Ride a bike, cars suck.

I'm sorry that people are occasionally, silently, but unfairly judging your choice of vehicle, presumably.

I don't think that counters the fact that many do people drive gigantic vehicles they will never need, though.

> Meanwhile, approximately everyone here routinely drives alone in a vehicle capable of carrying 5-7 people. (and right about now, someone is about to reply with 'ride a bike, cars suck!')

You've managed to lump everyone who disagrees with you into either the "hypocrite" or "fanatic" boxes.

I drive a Mini Cooper, not that that's worth bragging about. How will you dismiss my opinion?

> You've managed to lump everyone who disagrees with you into either the "hypocrite" or "fanatic" boxes.

Not intentionally. Just the ones who loudly proclaim that most people driving a pickup don't actually need it. To everyone else who is just driving the car they feel best suits their needs, more power to them. This also includes the vast majority of pickup owners.

Thanks for confirming

> Don't forget the small penis accusation.

Except it is about having a tiny penis (or more accurately, a big ego):

https://theweek.com/articles/929196/case-against-american-tr...

"Furthermore, the specific design trend of the massive hood sticking way out in front of the driver, with a cliff-face front grille obstructing the view several feet out in front of the wheels, is entirely a marketing gimmick. The explicit point is to create an angry, aggressive face that will intimidate others, especially pedestrians. Don't take it from me, take it from the guy who designed the latest GM Sierra HD: "The front end was always the focal point... we spent a lot of time making sure that when you stand in front of this thing it looks like it's going to come get you. It's got that pissed-off feel," he told Muscle Cars & Trucks. "The face of these trucks is where the action is," marketing expert Mark Schirmer told the Wall Street Journal's Dan Neil, "a Ford has to say Ford from head on, a Chevy must shout Chevy. Every pickup has become a rolling brand billboard and the billboards are big." And as Neil discovered when he was nearly run down in a Costco parking lot, that massive grille creates a massive blind spot."

You forgot the inevitable post by waiseristy mocking people who like these trucks and grouping everyone into single category of idiots.

...and, inevitably, someone to make the above comment. Maybe you can be the one to finally break the cycle :-)

Break the cycle how? Every time one of these threads come up I suggest buying a domestic full size 90’s truck instead and nobody gives a shit. The only things that gain traction in these threads is people shitting on their cultural enemies. Because Truck People bad!!

Maybe you can help break the cycle by looking at the huge used truck market we already have

I'm missing why this is a problem for you: TFA makes your exact point, and the author explains that they settled on a Kei truck for a combination of price and mileage reasons.

I don't care about "truck people." I thought the article was nice and, as a non-driver, I find the Kei trucks much more interesting to look at (and ride in).

> Truck People bad!!

One thing that I try to remind people of is that pickup trucks are the best selling vehicles in the US because the approximate definition of 'Truck People' is everyone.

Here I thought the childmashers were best selling because there is literally no alternative, as is the topic of this entire thread we are in.

Childmashers? That's kind of ridiculous.

There are much smaller pickups than an F150, for sure. Like a Maverick, to use an easy example. And it's a popular choice, too, though it's probably not going to unseat the F150 anytime soon.

I think most trucks nowadays (even "small" ones, which used to be considered "normal" sized) are big enough that you won't see an average sized 9 year old standing right in front of the hood.

> buying a domestic full size 90’s truck instead

90s trucks still had poor mileage and were less safe overall than new vehicles, they aren't gonna be many people's top choice.

My current pet theory is that an equally big problem to the "aggressive bro styling super high front grill" issues is an overall decline in relative income/living standards. Less space + money to have a family car + a utility truck, so your truck ALSO has to have a huge cabin, and do everything else the family car should do too, so it gets huge overall even if the bed is no bigger or more useful.

I had a 95 F-150 that I sold off like 20 years ago and I’m contemplating another (or possibly a 250). Like you say, it wasn’t particularly safe: It had one non-progressive airbag and no ABS. If you didn’t keep a bunch of sandbags in the back, the rear end was liable to come around right after any rain.

You too can be a proud owner of a beat up truck with 200k-300k miles for 10,000 dollars that needs another 5-10k of maintenance!

Nobody says truck people bad, you're strawmanning all over this thread. I've owned two trucks, a full sized and a compact, I'm a republican and I believe that if I want to drive a 90s Kei truck and take the risk of dying in a car accident I should have the ability to assume that risk for myself. Same as driving a car from the 60s.

Funny how these supposedly unsafe vehicles come from a country with way less traffic deaths than the safer USA

Because it's cars that kill people and ours are too big, too many, and driven by every idiot.

Washington State legislature was going to reduce the number of DUIs before prison from FIVE to FOUR (not 1 like it should be), but they chose not to because it'd be "too expensive". Yup, keep feeding us into the orphan killing machine.

Yep it sucks. Even in "better" places cars still find a way to ruin things though, so it's a constant battle.

Well, the Chicken tax chicken tax chicken tax point is worth complaining about.

I feel like there'd be a titanic shift in US pickup market if they could get a Hilux.

They already sell the Tacoma here, its basically a Hilux. F150 sales still lap it.

Usually followed by someone saying "I'd like to see that thing in a crash test against <giant pickup model>".

Well maybe if the giant truck driver was able to see over their hood, they wouldn't be in a collision.

lately i've seen a lot of people legitimately complaining that trucks look "too aggressive" and are "scary".

it just makes me laugh.

They legitimately are scary from an objective viewpoint. I love driving them, but they kill people for no reason and something needs to done at a systemic level to curb it. Modern vehicles have an array of cameras, sensors, and automatic braking, yet pedestrian deaths per vehicle-mile are higher than 30 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo

Some of those trucks are quite high and will kill pedestrians and even destroy other cars more in higher number.

It’s just physics. If you need it, fine, but seeing how much they are selling of those, a lot of us are starting to doubt how much of it is need vs want.

The ability to destroy other cars in an accident is a selling point in some… cultures. I remember sitting at the bar back in my very red state home town listening to a guy go on and on about how his new Dodge Ram would absolutely obliterate a “liberal’s Prius” if he crashed into it. He was not talking about the relative occupant safety difference between the two cars. He was specifically boasting about how he believed his truck can destroy other vehicles.

These must be the sort of people that put testicles on their trucks

They're probably talking about the front grille being a vertical wall taller than the standing height of a 5-foot woman, which would knock you under the wheels without the driver even seeing you.

Why does it make you laugh when the automotive industry literally brags about it?

Here's an article covering how pickups are becoming more deadly to others in crashes, becoming more common on the road, and being purposefully styled to look aggressive:

https://theweek.com/articles/929196/case-against-american-tr...

The article continues, discussing how actual commercial work vehicles (sprinter vans and cab-over box trucks for example) don't show the same styling trends.

> nobody actually needs or uses them

These make me chuckle. Those people have never done home improvement projects or just projects that require picking up 8ft sheets of plywood or 20 bags of mulch.

I put 20 bags of mulch in an SUV last weekend, one that almost certainly could carry less than TFA's mini-truck-thing. What gives?

As someone who lives in an old house on a fair bit of land, I sort of agree. A sedan wouldn't really work for me but an SUV with a roof rack is mostly just as good as a truck. (And I suppose I could always buy a trailer if it were really an issue.) The enclosed space is more generally useful than a truck bed.

That's the expensive route if you do it too often. I can buy 2 yards of mulch scooped into the back of my truck for quite a bit less than the cost of 20 bags. And then there's things like gravel, which you really don't want to try and get in bags at all. I could probably get by with a smaller truck if I didn't tow a big trailer with it, but I'd still choose an actual open-bed truck over an SUV or minivan.

Different strokes for different folks. It's going to depend a lot on what you routinely haul.

Sure. To your point above: do you think that trucks are the best-selling car in the US because Americans are routinely hauling loose gravel, or could it be something else? I suspect it's something else.

I suspect it's because a modern crew cab half-ton pickup is pretty close to the perfect vehicle for a big swath of Americans. Huge interior room for the family, enough bed & payload to be useful for everything from hauling appliances to gravel, dirt, lumber, whatever.

Just about the only thing it doesn't do well is fuel economy and driving in downtown urban areas. A large number of people rank those issues low on the list.

I mostly do outdoor activities that benefit from more interior space. I'd probably buy a trailer if mulch, gravel, etc. hauling became an issue. You're right that it depends on what you need space that's more than a sedan or a hatchback for.

I have a long wheelbase van with room racks, plus a trailer.

But pick up the overwhelm majority of items in the Celica, a two door hatch.

Anyways, suppliers deliver.

I think vans are a great choice, but from what I can find they’re not any cheaper than trucks. ie, getting one for less than 40k seems to be out of the question.

Is the price premium worth occasional use? Every DIY store I've ever been to has truck rental outside, and it's a lot less than a new truck.

To be fair to those people, they also don’t think you need your plywood and mulch because you should live in a nice little apartment with a surely altruistic landlord who takes care of every need that the plywood and mulch could satisfy.

Someone who does home improvements probably own a house. Shouldn't they be able to, you know, buy an apartment, if "the mising middle" apartments were available in the US and not banned by a million laws (freedom! :-) ).

Home Depot rents a big truck for $20-$40 for the 2 hours I'd need it. I could rent this truck every weekend for 30 years for the same price as a giant truck. And I wouldn't have to worry about its maintenance either.

Once you do this math it becomes very difficult to justify truck ownership without also being responsible for something that needs hauling/towing on a regular basis. The truth is that in 2023 a truck is a lifestyle purchase for many people as evidenced by the average cost of a new F-150 and the inability to buy buy a no-frills Regular Cab pickup outside of fleet sales.

If you'd have told me 15 years ago that people would be buying pickup trucks brand new for $60k with regularity I wouldn't have believed you but here we are...

I don’t disagree with your main point, but you can definitely still get regular cab no frills trucks. (Sadly that’s just not what most people buy)

...and so many dealers don't stock them. I honestly don't remember the last time that I saw a new one on a lot, let alone the road. Of course n=1 and all of that but I used to own one and live in a rural area so I don't think I'm far off.

Depends on use case. I do more than what I originally posted. I do pull a trailer with a small tractor on it frequently and move a lot more stuff than normal people do. Renting a truck would be more of a hassle for this type of work than for me to just pay the premium and own the thing out right.

> I could rent this truck every weekend for 30 years for the same price as a giant truck.

That assumes the price never increases for 30 years.

> > I could rent this truck every weekend for 30 years for the same price as a giant truck.

> That assumes the price never increases for 30 years.

While the average truck owner is paying interest, I'll be earning interest, so let's call it even.

My wife and I completely gutted and renovated a 2 bedroom home built in 1905 with a used 2007 Dodge Magnum and a roof rack. We initially bought it for a road trip around the US because it saved us thousands of dollars in fuel economy (it was a 3.5l V6) over the month-long trip compared to any van or truck. I initially bought it with the intent of selling it right after the road trip, but it ended up being a really well-rounded vehicle.

I grew up in south central Pennsylvania, and while we still have a fair amount of farmers in that region, most people buy trucks because they're marketed to, not because they're the right vehicle to own.

I clicked through here because I've seen a couple of Kei trucks in Philadelphia lately.

My corolla takes 10' long boards. Never maxed out the bags of mulch, but it's >10 for sure.

Have been thinking about a roof rack for sheet goods. Can't see why it wouldn't work.

Usually cars of this class can only support about 100lbs on the roof. We have Prius and RAV4 Hybrid with that limitation. The roof racks are still very useful, but I wouldn’t put 4x8 sheets of anything on them.

I moved a bunch of sheet goods with my Civic coupe, by which I mean I moved sheet goods on a bunch of occasions, one or two each time. The problem comes out to be weight, and ease of loading/driving.

The real solution for moving larger things is a trailer. UHaul rents trailers for the occasional use ~$20/day, no mileage charge. I say occasional use because it takes effort to go and get it, and UHaul builds them like brick shithouses. So you can get a lighter one that's nicer to tow if you buy one for a few kilobucks.

I inherited a light crossover SUV that's more than capable of towing a 5x10 trailer with a modest amount of weight around town. It does highways too, but keeping ~65 rather than ~80. If I were still limited to the Civic and needed to move stuff on the regular, I'd buy an even lighter trailer.

And a trailer has very little maintenance compared to getting another motor vehicle. I've started bringing a pallet or two and putting them down under whatever I get so I can just fork stuff off at home (and then in the case of stuff from big box stores, fork the rejects right back on to get returned).

These Kei trucks look neat, but I don't think they would actually solve many problems I have. A dump bed would be fantastic, but if I really needed that I could just bite the supply shortage bullet and get a dump trailer.

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