AmazonBasics Microwave: Accessible for People with Visual Impairments (2019) | Hacker News Reader

AmazonBasics Microwave: Accessible for People with Visual Impairments (2019)

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Interesting to see this here as the more expensive version of this microwave with convection baking nearly burned down my house on Thanksgiving.

It was a hectic morning and we were getting ready, and I had my kid put something into the microwave/oven. She put in the metal rack and the food on top. We’d done this dozens of times before.

I then used Alexa from another room and said “Alexa, bake at 400° Fahrenheit for twenty minutes”. Later I looked at the logs and Alexa had caught the words “____ at 400° Fahrenheit for twenty minutes” and took this to mean microwave. I’m not sure who specifies temperatures when microwaving, but that’s how it interpreted these very specific instructions. I’d gotten in the habit of being extremely specific because a few times it had tried to microwave when I’d specified bake, and naively thought this specificity would avoid such an issue.

Long story short I was having a nice shower when I smelled smoke, I basically got to live out the Disneyworld Carousel of Progress future scene when the oven went crazy. The metal cook pan embedded itself into the glass somehow and it smelled absolutely awful. We had to throw out the entire thing.

I actually told this story to an Amazon Alexa lead Engineer at a conference in 2021. He said he’d look into it and the microwave disappeared off the market soon after, so I don’t know maybe it was decided it was too dangerous of a product.

> I then used Alexa from another room and said “Alexa, bake at 400° Fahrenheit for twenty minutes”. Later I looked at the logs

I like how at no point did you realize the complete and unnecessary idiocy of remote controlling potentially dangerous appliances.

You have to walk up to it to put the food inside. Is pushing a few buttons afterward that difficult? Ok, so you sent your kid, you trust him or her to put the food inside but not operate the controls? What if your kid forgot to remove the cardboard wrapper?

Why is this IoT nonsense needed? WHY? For the love of God someone please explain to me why this was invented and what non-problem it solves. You're not even supposed to leave a toaster unattended let alone a microwave oven. Anyone that thinks "blind people, did you read the article?" should know that braille keypads and egg timer style analogue knobs on microwaves existed 40 years ago.

Things that can burn your house down should not be connected to the internet. There should be laws on the books for this. If you're so busy and so important that this presents an actionable problem then maybe you need a live-in housekeeper/butler.

I know what you're thinking, oh you must be some Orcas Island Luddite who thinks we should go back to the stone ages. "I can preheat my Wi-Fi connected oven on the drive home!" So you trust the kid you didn't trust enough to operate the temperature controls, to not have hidden his toys inside. All so you can shave 10 minutes off your frozen pizza.

We live in an era of amazing technology that is increasingly applied in the dumbest ways possible.

Eh they made a series of choices clearly planned for and intended and likely marketed by the creators of the devices. You're maybe right that it shouldn't exist, but given that it does the fault isn't with the user.

But the voice controls being an accessibility boon is part of the current context here. I think they're exactly right to place the failure with amazon.

In my industry (rail, which admittedly is more keen on system safety than most) this would absolutely be the responsibility of the designer not the user. Poor safety in design, simple as that.

I like how you didn't report it to Amazon originally. How low are our expectations these days? "I almost started a fire, I guess I was just holding it wrong".

I reported it immediately via some very difficult to navigate form that barely worked in the Alexa app. I never heard back or got any feedback. It was buried under menus and once I got to the form it was doing something weird where it was like chugging and crashed twice on my iPhone but I finally submitted.

Then heard nothing and got no indication I’d actually done anything. It definitely gave me the impression they didn’t care.

That sounds really scary. FWIW, cooking appliances are not allowed to be started remotely in Europe, presumably for this same reason.

Did the command set it to combo microwave?

I had an over-the-range combination range and have my share of complaints.

I almost never used the the convection function, so there would be a dependable layer of grease build-up.

For the convention or combination functions to work effectively, it needed time to come up to temperature, which meant “pre-heating” the element (and burning off the layer of grease).

The ownership experience was constant maintenance of the element, as well as management of compatible materials for cookware.

It met an untimely death when condensation from a microwave bottle sterilizer left overnight shorted out a door interlock and blew the internal fuse.

In my dazed state of having a baby, it was less of a hassle to replace it with a microwave-only unit than it was to hunt down a fuse.

...why doesn't Alexa confirm the actions it's going to take. "Starting the microwave for 20 minutes..."

I haven't used any Alexa product in probably 10 months or so but I always remember it repeating whatever command it was doing.

You can put it in reduced interactions mode or something like that which will make it speak less, but without testing this specific case it's impossible to know if it would have repeated or not.

Safe to say, yours was not the only high-severity complaint. And this microwave is not the only high-risk device.

When you change ASR and Alexa functionality, don't forget to test more than Music and Video, else you might burn someone's house down. What is QA anyways...

> I then used Alexa from another room…

…

> maybe it was decided it was too dangerous of a product.

That’s almost certainly what happened. If you give people the ability to do something insane like turning on their microwave without being in the same room as it, somebody is going to be foolish enough to actually attempt that — regardless of how pointlessly dangerous that is or how infinitesimal the amount of time or convenience that the ability to do so might create.

Forgive my ignorance, but isn't an old school microwave with knobs and button even more accessible, thanks to tacile feedback? Why do they need to put AI in everything?

Anecdotally, the previous tenant of my apartment was blind, and the microwave installed in the kitchen had one of those perfectly flat keypads with no tactile feedback whatsoever. He was able to use it just fine by having some braille labels printed out with a label maker and stuck to the buttons. There was no label on the power setting button, so I assume that, like me, he's just never used it.

He also used these braille labels to know where to turn the knobs on the washing machine, etc.

There are a lot of accessibility improvements I'd think to reach for before AI.

In general, "lot of XYZ improvements I'd think to reach for before AI" should be the default for most problems.

At this rate people will buying SortGPT before trying "sort()".

Though some level of natural language interface does seem more immediately accessible. But maybe just having it read the display back to you would be far easier than involving some kind of AI cloud service.

Press time button some times (or hold)

"10 seconds, 20 seconds, 30 seconds, 45 seconds, 1 minute, etc"

Press power button

"Full power, medium, low defrost"

Start

"Starting: 2 minutes at full power. Press again to cancel"

Bonus points: your house doesn't become instantly inaccessible when the internet doesn't work, or the APIs the device uses are changed, or they "do a Nest". Of course this is a negative point for those hoping to sell you an AI Microwave and an AI Microwave 2 in 2 years time.

To be fair, SortGPT operates at web scale, which is pretty important for my temporarily embarrassed million-DAU service.

Blind person here. This is a lot easier to do if your device requires you to firmly press on the surface to activate the controls. If it doesn't, you will inevitably activate something while trying to feel around for the label. There are ways around this, either a maze of long, thin seals that goes between the buttons and that you can move your fingers over, or a cardboard overlay with somewhat deep holes, but those devices are a lot more annoying.

It's even worse when the device remembers its last state, and going pass the last option cycles back to the first. If this happens, there's no way to reliably set the temperature for example, as you don't know the current value and have no way of setting the device to a predictable state.

Microwave user interfaces are incredibly frustrating.

My parents had one of the earliest commercial microwaves when I was growing up. It had:

- two radio buttons (they were big plastic things, exactly one sticks out and is ready to be pressed at a time) to toggle between cook and defrost.

- a timer knob that had a fin on the front. Turning the fin to 2' o'clock set it to one minute; noon meant "zero / done".

- a paddle switch that opened the door.

- a nice (internal) physical bell that the knob rang when it reached zero.

It was completely accessible for blind people, and was infinitely easier to use than any of the digital models. It took one arm movement to close the door, and push the fin to the right angle.

It also lasted at least 30 years.

> It also lasted at least 30 years.

Well therein lies your problem, every company that makes good long lasting things ends up going under.

For the vision impaired, it takes some effort to figure out what the knobs and buttons do; and what state/setting the microwave currently is in (e.g. what's the power level?)

The power knob controls and displays, visually and tactile-ly, the current power level.

My father-in-law has a special model, he is nearly blind and somewhat deaf - he is 94. He absolutely needs (loud) audio feedback for every operation and countdown for the timer. I can fully appreciate he would not manage with anything less.

[By audio I mean spoken]

Buttons on a microwave are like features on a car (or in a software program). Great for comparative marketing, but do you really need all those features? Do they make it better?

I bought this microwave, currently $74.97 and even my six year old could use it. I'm not blind, but I can't imagine why anybody needs all those buttons. I bought this because it saves me a couple seconds every time I use it. It is a better, simpler design, cheaper, and appeals to my favorite design principle: "what can we remove to make this better?" The only downside is that the electronics and mechanical parts are not built to last. But that's generally true of the expensive microwaves too, and they have more things that will break rendering the whole thing useless. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BGTNY8O/

Great for comparative marketing, but do you really need all those features? Do they make it better?

Depends what you value. Sounds like you are optimizing for speed of input, so a couple dials are going to be the best option. I like digital for the precise input. I throw a slice of cheese in for 8 seconds because I know that’s how long it takes to get it from cold to to room temperature. It’s a little harder to pick exact, short times on a dial. It is more of a trade off than one type of control is inherently better.

I actually really enjoy the sensor cooking on my microwave. Single press reheat button, defrost by weight works really well, specific food cook modes are spot on (potatoes, popcorn, frozen veggies, chicken). Like, would you not want to just press a button once and have a, evenly cooked chicken breast? Or just put some frozen veggies in a bowl, press a single button, and they're nice and steamy every time?

From the article, it seems there is tactile feedback on the buttons—the author says they aren’t sure which button was the 2 button, implying they could differentiate buttons.

Your solution seems strictly worse. If they’re setting the time with a knob, how do they get 1:35 instead of a guesstimate of the time? How do they change the power level, use the defrost mode, the popcorn preset?

They don’t need to put AI into everything, but having these niceties often help those with disabilities navigate life more easily, and I’m all for it.

> If they’re setting the time with a knob, how do they get 1:35 instead of a guesstimate of the time?

A stepped dial would solve this.

> How do they change the power level, use the defrost mode, the popcorn preset?

A grid of radio buttons would solve this.

It's not like we don't know how to engineer accessible technology. They really do just want to cram AI into everything.

> A stepped dial would solve this.

I've used many stepped-dial microwaves, and not a single one of them would be good for blind users. The step often changes size after a certain point and steps are often missed. If you're aiming for six and a half minutes, having to do mental arithmetic or keep careful track is not fun ("12 ticks to reach a minute and then 11 ticks of half minutes, and let's hope it actually got them all").

In my direct experience, the best interfaces for blind users are ones that can have tactile/braille labels applied and ones with voice feedback, in that order.

I don’t know - I think for an awful lot of applications, language is the ideal interface.

In 10 years, I want to be able to say “make me some toast and then go feed the cats” to my domestic robot, not sit there twiddling dials to select the toast function and accidentally combining the command with “feed cat” and ending up with “feed me toasted cat”.

Interfaces should be intuitive. Human language is intuitive for all humans who are ever likely to interact with an interface.

Look at the comment from wincy detailing very dangerous outcomes [1] to see why voice control might not always be best.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36745581

What kind of feedback do you get from a grid of buttons? How do I know whether 1 is top left (like a phone) or bottom left (like a keyboard)?

Once the initial setup is out of the way (which I admit is probably a bit of a pain) being able to either talk to it or have it announce what's about to happen seems like a good idea.

> Your solution seems strictly worse. If they’re setting the time with a knob, how do they get 1:35 instead of a guesstimate of the time? How do they change the power level, use the defrost mode, the popcorn preset?

They could use knobs with beveled points and with clear beveled icons/text around the knobs?

I suppose we should ask visual impired person instead of guessing.

>I suppose we should ask visual impired person instead of guessing.

You mean like the one who presumably wrote the linked article that non-blind people are arguing against the suggestion from?

Popcorn preset? Who uses that? What does it even do? Dont microwave popcorn bags just say 3 minutes at 600W?

3 minutes at 600W? My microwave is 1680W. What's the right conversion? Is this bag a little small, is this one a little large?

My single button sensor has never made a bad batch yet.

Popcorn presets either detect steam once the popcorn is almost done popping (then runs for N more seconds), or actually use a microphone to detect the time between pops (I think the latter is more accurate). If done well, it can work well. Apparently it’s often not done well because the bags of microwave popcorn almost always say “don’t use popcorn setting!”

The problematic popcorn settings are the ones that don't have any such detection and instead ask you to enter a weight and they choose an amount of time based on that. It's very inaccurate and causes either many unpopped kernels or some burning.

Right I'm wondering if I'm missing something too, although some parts were making sense like opening the box and the turntable, some parts read like workarounds to the situation? I hope someone better informed can chime in

I have the cheapest microwave offering from Ikea, it has 2 dials, no buttons. It is by far the best UI in my household.

I have a WIFI label on mine, had it for years ... I still don't know what it's for.

It's for a price increase by looking edgy and modern. Oh wait you meant for you the user ? No, it doesn't serve any purpose.

You forgot planned obsolescence.

Also, LG (of all the appliances we put in our house, LG has, by far, the shittiest software -- they are somehow worse than samsung) is going to move to a mode where you need to have the wifi connected so it can confirm that you've paid for your monthly appliance subscription, and so that the ads stay up to date. LG projects a 50% revenue increase from this (they are not planning to subsidize the purchase prices of their stuff; this is pure double-dipping).

I think they are delusional, but, assuming it works, this means the subscription/ad revenue would add up to ~ 50% the price of the appliance on average.

I guess people will just starve to death or something when their wifi routers go offline, but that's a small price to pay for an integer factor increase of LG's profit margins.

> I initially had some difficulty pairing the microwave with my Echo Dot. After several attempts, the app said to press the number 2 button for four seconds, and the display will flash. Since I was not sure which button was number 2, I needed sighted assistance. Another option would have been to FaceTime a friend, or call Be My Eyes or AIRA. Initially, this procedure didn't work and the devices wouldn't pair. I rebooted my iPhone, changed the microwave’s location, and tried again. This time it worked. I don’t know whether it was rebooting or changing location that allowed the devices to pair.

This sounds way less accessible than a normal microwave

Yeah the author says the microwave wasn't specifically designed to be accessible. But who hasn't once had trouble pairing their IoT devices?

This is a fantastic article, I never thought about a lot of this stuff, like describing how a package opens (what to expect first, what this styrofoam is for and what that is for).

I wonder how the additional AI aspect will help, being able to upload a photo and ask AI what is in that photo in detail. Something like describe how to get the #2 button in this photo. Or in real time video.

Also makes me wonder if FaceTiming AI which actively analysis the video could be a thing…

I’m not much for thinking that extra tactile buttons means more accessible. I do think that Alexa would be 100% easier assuming it works fairly well. Which may or may not be true.

Apple recently previewed a feature called "Point and Speak" that does exactly this. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/05/apple-previews-live-s...

BeMyEyes was working on an AI feature like this https://openai.com/customer-stories/be-my-eyes

Looks like this microwave hasn't been sold (as new) on Amazon since May 2022, using CamelCamelCamel to look at the price history of this item (B07894S727), being last sold at $75. However, there are four other Alexa-enabled microwaves currently being sold on Amazon, for $143, $144, $300 and $2197.

I wonder how long the Alexa integration will last. I suppose even if the Alexa integration is discontinued in the future, they would still continue to function no worse than regular microwaves.

The toaster oven that I use is Tovala as part of a prepared meal service... and they're fairly good.

It uses QR codes on a recipe sheet to set up a sequence of events for the toaster oven. That is, if you scan the "chicken and bacon ranch Swiss melt" it will bake at 400°F for 15 minutes, steam at 425°F for 3 minutes, and then broil for 2 minutes.

It can also do some groceries from the barcodes on there. I was pleased to find that the corn dogs that I occasionally got had a pre-programed recipe as do the single French bread pizzas.

When its all done, the toaster oven beeps and I get a haptic feedback on my iWatch.

It does have buttons and display for a regular sighted person too - its not a slave to the app and barcodes.

I'll note that I don't know how the iPhone app fares for accessibility. However, I do know that someone could set up index cards with barcodes (QR or regular) on them and have it either run from its (limited) set of store bought grocery meals or run a recipe sequence associated with that barcode in the app. Those index cards could also have braille on them for instructions and identification.

With some assistance and initial setup, it would be possible to that toaster oven to be a fairly accessible device for a set of meals (that can be extended with assistance).

To get an idea of what this could be like - https://imgur.com/a/Y1ccx5D except done as braille.

The instructions for the toaster oven are encoded in the QR code.

fun-fact:

Most microwaves sold in the USA are made by just one company and rebranded like mad: Midea

(toasters too)

We will never, ever, be able to cut off China no matter how even worse their behavior becomes towards their own people or other countries in the future.

And Whirlpool owns Maytag

I have one of these. I bought it because my previous microwave died and while I rarely used it I still wanted *something*. The Amazon Basics model was the one that managed to combine the form factor I wanted with a low price. I thought the Alexa integration was funny, but did not play into my decision.

The Alexa integration was fun at first but I quickly stopped using it. At most it saves about 10 seconds of effort. But I could totally see how for a less able bodied person it'd be huge.

While we are talking about improvements to household appliances, my partner had a moment of genius yesterday: Sodastream in the fridge. Since many refrigerators today have a water dispenser, why doesn't it include an option for a carbonated water dispenser? You'd think the manufacturers would love this as they could get recurring revenue same as water filters and air filters in the form of the co2 cartridges.

A new, upmarket trend here in Europe is building carbonation, filtering, cooling and boiling water directly into the tap. Which is rather nice.

https://watersystems.grohe.co.uk/en/

https://www.quooker.nl/international

Sodastream and Samsung(?) had a partnership which did just this a while back! I told myself that when my current fridge died I would get one, and was actually a bit too excited when it finally passed. Unfortunately, I scoured the market and wasn’t able to find a single one for sale, only references and manuals from models last produced several years ago.

When the repair guy told us yesterday morning that our LG was dying, it meant a day of research to replace it... I still have a bad vibe for Samsung from a crappy experience 20 years ago, and I gotta say none of their refrigerators stacked up well by comparison in my grid. Not at all happy with LG at this point given that this fridge is barely 5 years old as the experience has been the opposite of what I had with my very still functioning 15 year old LG washer and dryer. Thinking Bosch, but then when I quizzed several friends the reviews were mixed there too.

Yeah it was Samsung. I had one of these. It was fine like you'd expect. It really was just an expensive gimmick.

The blind people I know either favor the old fashioned microwaves with two analog knobs, one to set power and one mechanical timer, or just put a brail dot on the "30 more seconds" button like everyone else on the planet uses anyway 99% of the time. I can't imagine relying on a shitty voice assistant for this.

I understand the article is about people with visual impairments, but why doesn't even it include a photo of the microwave in question? If you amazon the model number it takes you to another one altogether.

Just too funny.

Because the primary audience for this article would be consuming the content as audio, via text-to-speech screen reader.

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