‘It’s the Wild West’: Vienna’s spying problem spins out of control | Hacker News Reader

‘It’s the Wild West’: Vienna’s spying problem spins out of control

ft.com

38 pointseatonphil106 comments

Vienna, a city synonymous with shady cold war intrigue...

If you are curious what that was like, I highly recommend Orson Welles' film The Third Man, which is set in post-war Vienna. You can even visit the sewers where part of the film takes place. (I recommend it, but be aware that it isn't fancy.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Man

https://www.wien.gv.at/english/environment/sewer-system/thir...

The Third Man is absolutely fantastic. Its not just good for its time, it holds up even today.

It’s also associated with Trotsky and a few other marxists around the time of the revolution.

I don't quite get what they are "spying" there, as there's probably no specific information to get there. From the article the Russians are meeting German informants there, ok. Then there's the issue with SIGINT on the roofs of Russian embassy etc. Is there anything to be got that can not be collected anywhere else, specifically in Russia?

During the cold war, Austria was the on border between the Soviet bloc and the West. Historically, the Austro-Hungarian empire had a lot of territories in Central Europe, which has strong ties to Russia as well. I am guessing that some of the links are still there.

>I don't quite get what they are "spying" there... the issue with SIGINT on the roofs of Russian embassy etc.

Is there anything to be got that can not be collected anywhere else, specifically in Russia?

GSM, 3G, 4G, 5G interceptors, cellular tapping and eavesdropping

Stingrays, also known as "cell site simulators" or "IMSI catchers,"

are invasive cell phone surveillance devices that mimic cell phone towers,

and send out signals to trick cell phones in the area into transmitting their locations and identifying information.

cell site simulators : <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=cell+sit...>

WiFi snooping bases, etc.

Vienna is full of international organizations from UNO to OPEC: https://wien-io.diplo.de/iow-en/international-organizations

Right, having once worked there, it was obvious to me these organizations provided the perfect opportunity for contact without raising red flags. (No, that wasn't my job, my work was far too prosaic for that.)

Re comment "...has once again become the espionage capital of Europe after Russia’s invasion of Ukraine — and Austria’s government seems in no rush to change that."

It's obvious why not, to do so would instantly tread on the toes of these organizations and that's just not going to happen.

This is replaced by Brussels for long, with the EU and NATO headquarters there. Most of the spying is happening there nowadays. Then Washington, then Geneva.

But all the known Russian spies were not sent home, so the West is angry.

It is true that EU and NATO are important spying targets, but Vienna still has relevant targets, with many UN departments, IAEO, OPEC and being a meeting point between East and West (Visegrád etc.)

And then you have buildings like IZD Tower which are known to be almost certainly NSA spying sites.

During the Cold War, even information that we would now think of as open source intelligence, like newspaper and magazine articles, was valid SIGINT. The closer you came to the dividing line between the blocks, the more probable it was to find this kind of information (just like you may be more likely to find maritime information in a port, as compared to the a landlocked place). This naturally attracted foreign personal and international organizations, as well, which introduced another class of targets of value. Which in turn makes overall activities more likely, which also provides a certain level of noise to hide your own activities…

Or just on the roof of the Russian Embassy in London/Berlin/Washington?

The article pearl clutches w/out stating why Vienna is a spying hub (no, its not the intl. orgs there).

Hint - legally Austria is not, in the words of the article, "allies" with the West.

Legally Austria is part of the European Union and a founding member of the OECD. Its not just "allies with" the West. It is part of the west.

Politically, yes. From a military point of view, it has committed itself to neutrality - it's mostly forgotten that after the end of WW2, Austria (and Vienna) were also divided in occupation zones, similar to Germany (and Berlin) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Austria. This occupation was already ended in 1955, but only at the price of committing to stay neutral "forever". And it looks like they still feel bound by this commitment...

Austrian neutrality has changed a lot over the years. They're part of the EU's common foreign and security policy, part of which is "Permanent Structured Cooperation" (because the EU, as much as I love it, absolutely sucks at naming stuff). Third countries can participate in PESCO and the US, UK, Canada and Turkey have applied to join in (i.e. its very closely tied with NATO).

There are currently Austrian troops in the NATO-led KFOR force in Kosovo and as part of the EU force in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

TLDR: yeah they're "neutral" but the meaning of that word changes fairly significantly depending on the context.

I said allied with the West. Austria, as the heart of the Holy Roman Empire, is very much part of the West.

Austria's Westerness has nothing to do with the silly institutions you listed and everything to do with Her history.

But the context is spying, armies and war. So let's do NATO next and, generally, military alliances.

Austria is constitutionally obliged not to enter into alliances that compromise her neutrality. This constitutional clause was insisted upon by the Soviets (in early the 50s? Late 40s?) for them to agree for the return of Austria's sovereignty.

The other three occupying powers agreed and Austria became independent. An Austria that reneges on military neutrality technically reneges on her sovereignty.

The FT's article was clearly talking about military alliances therefore was grossly inaccurate when it deemed Austria an "western" ally. Austria is de jure, both according to national and international law, a neutral country. Her neutrality is more caked into law than Switzerland's.

The Holy Roman Empire has very little do do with what is "the west", even within Europe. Spain, Poland, Portugal the UK were not part of it and only a small part of France was. France is (in my view) clearly significantly part of "the west" than many areas formerly part of the HRE.

Malta is also constitutionally required to be neutral, and as a result did not enter the EU's PESCO. Austria takes a rather more "flexible" view of its Neutrality than Malta does, and so joined PESCO. Note that third countries can participate in PESCO, and those which have requested to join are: Canada, Norway, the USA, the UK and Turkey. This is pretty clearly not a neutral organisation. Austria's neutrality may be more baked into law than Switzerland's is, but it is clearly not as significant as Malta's.

Arguably the Holy Roman Empire has a lot to do with what "the west" is

Perhaps it depends where you're from. I was born in the UK, and I don't see the HRE as particularly influencing my view of western vs non-western countries. Especially France, Spain, Portugal and the UK seem emphatically Western to me.

Legally, spying in Austria is only illegal when Austria itself is concerned. (Technically, there is no damage done to the public good in espionage against a third party. As Austria is technically/officially without allies, there are also no intermediate interests to defend, justifying a universal law against this. However, there may be reason to update this with regard to EU membership. Mind that this is also a legacy of when Austria had been a much-needed link between the East and the West, in the Cold War, and even before this. But as it is now, the need for or the worth of such a role is perceived increasingly less.)

Regarding "allied", it's complicated: EU membership is sort of an association, Austria is member of P4P, and there were certain grey projects in the past, which involved cooperation (and also circumvented parliamentary oversight), Austria is very probably participating in Skyshield, but technically Austria is not part of any block. However, for Austria, there had never been any doubt that it was aligned to Western values and strategies.

It's actually a two-fold problem, e.g., the military intelligence service refuses to report on any cooperations with the NSA to parliament, which is expected to have oversight.

Geopolitically it makes a ton of sense. Austria is part of the EU while it is not part of NATO. It's basically a buffer state between eastern and western EU.

That makes zero sense since Austria is literally surrounded by NATO countries.

Um... Good.

Given the amount of posturing on both sides, the actual shooting war in Ukraine and the nuclear arsenals involved, it seems like a public service to facilitate both sides actually knowing what the other side actually thinks and what their actual red lines are.

You're assuming (for some unknown reason) that both sides are acting rationally?

Would you care to elaborate on that?

I don't think I am, am I? Sorry if I am missing your point. I am just saying you want to know whether they're actually irrational or just pretending (which is often rational). And when Putin says "X is a red line" you want to KNOW whether he means it or not. And it's likely a good thing for him to know the same about Biden.

Good in this context is defined as avoiding nuclear war. Whether it means winning a particular point in Ukraine or not... Sorry Ukraine.

I would make a counterargument and say the "big stuff" (ie Nuclear War) is pretty well known by all sides. For the "big stuff" everyone from world leaders to regular folks who just pay attention to the news know because it gets brought up practically every day in the context of the war.

Well that depends right? I don't think anyone WANTS a nuclear exchange.

But we're escalating pretty rapidly. A year ago we were "no lethal aid", now we're giving Ukraine F 16s. If Putin said "do that and I'll blow them the fuck up on the way over", who he be serious or not? If he tried would we retaliate and how? If a conventional missile strike fails will he hit it with an ICBM (much harder to intercept)? If so, we will not know whether it is nuclear armed until it hits. So do we (nuclear) strike back or just take the first hit? And if we hit back is Russia's early warning system smart enough to tell whether we're using a nuke? And all of this assumes 1000s of individual soldiers who we rely on to man these systems, report information and make no mistakes will be 100% on it...

And these are all rational actions by rational actors none of whom actually wants a nuclear exchange right?

And if someone on either side is NOT rational. Then there is even more need to know what it actually happening right?

It would be nice to have answers to all of these questions without having to try them out and see...

> A year ago we were "no lethal aid",

This is 100% false. A year ago, in July of 2022, Ukraine was already getting a lot of lethal aid. They started getting a lot of it pretty much by the beginning, when it was clear that Ukraine did not fold instanly in three days.

You're correct, it started in June 2020. How time flies!

2017

> But we're escalating pretty rapidly. A year ago we were "no lethal aid", now we're giving Ukraine F 16s.

I don't know who the 'we' is in this scenario but the west has been giving Ukraine lethal aid ever since 2017.

The earliest I am aware of is June 2020 (some small patrol boats)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukrain...

Happy to be corrected.

I believe that before then we were limited ourselves to "non-lethal aid" like radios and kevlar...

> The earliest I am aware of is June 2020 (some small patrol boats)

In 2017 the US sent javelins to Ukraine.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/12/23/us-officials-say-lethal-...

Before 2017, as far back as 2015, when the "little green men" started showing up. Non-trivial -- but nowhere near as much as now -- amounts of ammo and other supplies.

> And when Putin says "X is a red line" you want to KNOW whether he means it or not.

He does not mean it. It was shown again and again and again. And in any case, spying in Austria will not reveal Putin thoughts.

Look at Putin's actions and you can see plenty of aggression when people cross a given red line. The invasions of both Ukraine and Georgia were well advertised before they happened.

And even if this were not true, do you really want to bet the future of humanity on it? Presumably you will lead the march east yourself as Putin is all talk?

He was claiming red lines about 30 times during the last war, the lines were crossed and absolutely nothing happened. Again and again. Putin does not have actual red lines. He attacks when he thinks you are weak and does not attack when he thinks you are strong.

Before latest full scale invasion of Ukraine happened, Putin claimed that there will be no invasion and it is just evil Americans lying about his plans.

And during previous invasions, be claimed he is not invading at all, it was all supposed to be rebels. And annexation of Crimea had zero to do with any red lines too.

> Presumably you will lead the march east yourself as Putin is all talk?

I am not military leader nor politician. I can not possibly lead the march to anywhere.

Mail us your CV if you want to work in this industry in Austria or the close central European area and 1) you are not squeamish, 2) you hold no strong political or national views and 3) you either enjoy this kind of work or can keep negative personal feelings about this kind of work hidden (=tasks at work are more important that your ethics or morals -> no Snowden wannabes).

We are looking for anything from butlers, private cooks over ex-military to computer scientists, software engineers and mathematicians. Training on the job and good benefits are part of the deal, a deep background check and absolute confidentiality are essential for survival.

nzwuhgywjooqvqmasc@cazlg.com

huh real domain.

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Nice try, domestic intelligence service.

paywalled

I remember Austrians imprisoned un-subjugated people at home.

No surprises.

What, specifically, are you referring to? And why do you think it's relevant to the current discussion?

Good on Austria, don't play their silly games. They just want to rob you blind like they're doing to everyone else.

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